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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/18/2011 3:14:59 PM   
coookie


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I think that unless there is some drive to do it, well for myself anyway, it is not satisfying. I think that people can act the part and others would be content with that. The part that wants bdsm is very hinged in the fact they they want to do it.. otherwise it is much akin to wanting to go for a nice meal and hitting McDonalds ... know what I mean?

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/18/2011 3:48:45 PM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life.

And, yet, faced with similar circumstances, different people will make different choices. Why is that, if it's not because of who we are?

If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch????

Why can't a switch be "born that way"?

It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne


Personally, i think who we are is a combination of nature and nurture. In my case i explain my fascination with kink as being an genetic predisposition that needed to be acted upon by my experiences in order to bring it out.

pam


I used the term "switch" in the context of someone who is goes between dom and sub as in how can you be both. We could talk from today til tomorrow as the "meaning of switch" and how I may have used it incorrectly. But for this conversation that is how I meant switch.

BadOne


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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/18/2011 3:54:29 PM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life. If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch???? It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne


I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think there's definitely a combination of nature and nurture. As to what the ratio is, hell if I know. In response to your question about switches, again, hell if I know. They're an anomaly.

quote:

It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.
But I don't subscribe to this point. I could decide from today onwards that I'm going to be a Dom. I can start training with some Dom friends. Work on my most commanding voice, practice my single-tail skills, etc. etc. Basically invest a lot of time and energy into becoming the best damn Dom I can be. But I guarantee you that 5, 10, 15 years down the road I'm still going to be a shitty dominant. I'm not "wired" that way. Never have been and never will be.

Now what exactly that is, whether it's me being "born this way", don't know for sure. I don't know what you would call it.





Being good at something is entirely a different matter and conversation. By the by nurture and life experiences to my mind have the same meaning. ie your parents nurture in a certain direction would be a life experience

BadOne


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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/18/2011 4:22:23 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
I used the term "switch" in the context of someone who is goes between dom and sub as in how can you be both. We could talk from today til tomorrow as the "meaning of switch" and how I may have used it incorrectly. But for this conversation that is how I meant switch.
BadOne


i don't know what the official definition of "switch" is either. i may be using it wrong myself. But it seems to me that the tendency to want to switch from Dom to sub (instead of only doing one or the other) could also be seen as an inborn characteristic, instead of just a behavior. i apologise if i misunderstood.

pam

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/18/2011 6:06:15 PM   
discreethusband


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We are unique from all other species in that we are conscious of our own personal evolution, allowing us to direct and effect the day to day progress. Although I do not per se disagree with the "I was born this way" argument, I do feel that it is largely abused as an idea and understates what is for most people a fundamental aspect of their personal identity. Now I am certainly one who feels that most psychology applications of today boil down to modern day witch doctor-ism, but that isn't to say that the nature vs. nurture arguments bear some merit. As a rule I believe that we are all more than the some of our parts, and while we see ourselves as one way or another, that's not to say, given an entirely different set of circumstances and opportunities in life, we would certainly have been the same, and not drastically different. I'm sure for some of you, this suggestion is an assault upon your identity, but to say otherwise, to me, seems to negate the very essence of our humanity in that we are constantly changing, growing, evolving, and while some things are static, others are not. I am not convinced that sexual proclivity, as far as dominance and submission, within our own orientation, falls into the static category.

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 4:28:54 AM   
ThePeripatetic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life. If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch???? It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne


I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think there's definitely a combination of nature and nurture. As to what the ratio is, hell if I know. In response to your question about switches, again, hell if I know. They're an anomaly.

quote:

It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.
But I don't subscribe to this point. I could decide from today onwards that I'm going to be a Dom. I can start training with some Dom friends. Work on my most commanding voice, practice my single-tail skills, etc. etc. Basically invest a lot of time and energy into becoming the best damn Dom I can be. But I guarantee you that 5, 10, 15 years down the road I'm still going to be a shitty dominant. I'm not "wired" that way. Never have been and never will be.

Now what exactly that is, whether it's me being "born this way", don't know for sure. I don't know what you would call it.





Being good at something is entirely a different matter and conversation. By the by nurture and life experiences to my mind have the same meaning. ie your parents nurture in a certain direction would be a life experience

BadOne



Is it an entirely different matter and conversation? I mean I understand what you're getting at. But when I say that I would be unable to become a quality Dom after years of practice and training I'm implying that it doesn't come naturally to me. I could have probably phrased things a bit differently. But what I'm getting at is regardless of how much effort I put forth, I would essentially be "faking" dominance and sadism until the day I die. It just doesn't work for me, I've tried. Juxtaposed with this is my ability to fall into submission quickly, naturally, almost effortlessly. If the shoes fits....

And I agree with you on the linkage between nurturing and life experience. I didn't mean to suggest that the two are separate. So when I say "I think there's definitely a combination of nature and nurture", by all means, substitute the word "nurture" with "life experiences".

But I still don't think one can attribute the desire for submission or Dominance strictly to life experiences. What the combination may be between "nature" and "nurture", again, hell if I know. But for those of us who have early life memories of either submission or Dominance ideas, fantasies, and roleplaying, I think stating "I was born this way" is not too far off the mark. No, it's not an entirely accurate statement, but it probably hits close to home nonetheless.

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 4:33:36 AM   
ThePeripatetic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reform



quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think there's definitely a combination of nature and nurture. As to what the ratio is, hell if I know. In response to your question about switches, again, hell if I know. They're an anomaly.


An anomaly? As in we don't make sense? Do you have any specific questions for switches I might be able to answer?


Sorry Reform, this was said mostly tongue-in-cheeck. No, I don't really have any specific questions for switches. Switches rock! Just keep on being you.

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 4:44:26 AM   
RCdc


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quote:


ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

Is it an entirely different matter and conversation? I mean I understand what you're getting at. But when I say that I would be unable to become a quality Dom after years of practice and training I'm implying that it doesn't come naturally to me. I could have probably phrased things a bit differently. But what I'm getting at is regardless of how much effort I put forth, I would essentially be "faking" dominance and sadism until the day I die. It just doesn't work for me, I've tried. Juxtaposed with this is my ability to fall into submission quickly, naturally, almost effortlessly. If the shoes fits....


You cannot train or practice to be dominant. I think you may be mixing the term dominant with the term top.
Top's can and are trained. It's an active role, rather than an ability.

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 4:59:12 AM   
ThePeripatetic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:


ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

Is it an entirely different matter and conversation? I mean I understand what you're getting at. But when I say that I would be unable to become a quality Dom after years of practice and training I'm implying that it doesn't come naturally to me. I could have probably phrased things a bit differently. But what I'm getting at is regardless of how much effort I put forth, I would essentially be "faking" dominance and sadism until the day I die. It just doesn't work for me, I've tried. Juxtaposed with this is my ability to fall into submission quickly, naturally, almost effortlessly. If the shoes fits....


You cannot train or practice to be dominant. I think you may be mixing the term dominant with the term top.
Top's can and are trained. It's an active role, rather than an ability.


Right. I understand the difference. I apologize if I was mixing up the lingo in my previous posts.

I guess this difference between "tops" and "Dominants", "bottoms" and "submissives" cuts to the core of what I was asking about and alluding to in my original post. Yes, one can be trained to be a top or a bottom. But can one be "trained" or "developed" into a true Dominant or submissive? Or is it just something you either have or you don't have?

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 5:29:26 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

Right. I understand the difference. I apologize if I was mixing up the lingo in my previous posts.

I guess this difference between "tops" and "Dominants", "bottoms" and "submissives" cuts to the core of what I was asking about and alluding to in my original post. Yes, one can be trained to be a top or a bottom. But can one be "trained" or "developed" into a true Dominant or submissive? Or is it just something you either have or you don't have?


I believe that people look at dominance and submission in a far too complicated way. It really is as simple as - an example - a person who wishes to have authority finding someone who wishes to relinquish authority to them.

Personally, I do not hold to the notion that persons a, b, d, and g are dominants and that persons c, e, f, h and i are submissive. Everyone in their lives have moments where they are dominant and where they are submissive. You have the repeated mantra of self identified s-types making the statement 'you may be dominant but you are not dominant over me'... really, as a statement that makes no sense whatsoever. If you were to break that sentance down what is being said is 'At this time I am the authority in my life and you have no say' (if they are single) or 'The authority is already someone else's, you have no say'.

This is where switches are at the advantage and have it clearest. It's not really about being made or being born dominant, it's about finding someone who is compatible to the desire you have at that time.


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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 8:35:27 AM   
sockit2me


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It seems to me that dominance and submission are just parts of a relationship. Either one can be cultivated to be or recognized as a predisposition. A typical modern relationship is expected to be roughly equal, with perhaps there being areas where one person controls more and the other gives in more, but equality is the general ideal. Historically relationships have not been so equal and so we have a wealth of cultural rituals and expectations for being either dominant or submissive as the case may be. By identifying as one or the other the person can know more clearly how to conduct their relationship; it erases confusion and makes negotiation unnecessary Beyond this simplifying clarity, having only one main component to your attitude also allows its expression to become the avenue of freedom for any of your needs and kinks that do not fit neatly into normal relationships. You can sort of get away with anything as long as you classify it as belonging to your form of domination or submission, since you have already crossed the kink threshold. The essence of it is perhaps as simple as freedom to be yourself, even if that takes some amount of posturing as a dominant or a submissive. People have desires, appetites, needs, and respond to stimulation. People can arrange relationships which include the kinds of intimate interactions whereby longings are intensified and satisfied. BDSM is in one sense a playground with rules that allow for naming yourself as this or that, then playing well together in ways not usually expected or allowed.

The essence of need is based in how life is. Need is what gets people to eat, breathe, sleep, have sex, and any number of things. People are walking collections of needs. Those needs need to be addressed and met somehow. Kink is somehow, for some of those needs. The craving is universal and the kink is one of its forms. Kink is good because it provides for an initial acceptance generally that something strange is being discussed, and so then when you get to the specific details you already know you won't be rejected just for being kinky; it depends on what kind of kink. You're already a step ahead of normal society where just being kinky is sometimes too much. let alone what kink it is. I think that people learn by accident that when you seek out others who like kink you gain the advantage of being acceptable at least initially, and have the vocabulary to discuss and negotiate for your needs whatever they may be, no matter how strange according to the prevailing culture. In the counterculture of kink half the battle is won just by showing up. Kinky people give one another at least that. Then, if you do happen to manage some rewarding experiences you adopt the labels and return for more. You found a way to meet some of your needs. You ran the maze and found the cheese.

It's a neat psychological trick about sexual behavior that when it gets labeled as bad or weird you can then go looking for it by the same label. You can look for places where bad and weird sex is made much of. You'll find others who got there by the same route, in search of the same kind of thing. They want sex, and sex was said to be just a narrow range of sex acts, but turned out to be a lot more, only the "more" was called strange or kinky, so if you happen to want more you end up with people who call themselves kinky. If sex was just accepted broadly in all its variations by the general population nothing would be kinky and you wouldn't have places like this, or any special allure and excitement operating in the sexual underground.

Whether dominance or submission end sup being your thing probably goes back to something that you tried and that worked, and may involve feelings you had very early on, when as a child no relationship you had with an adult was equal. As children we are submissive to our parents. That program is built in. Then as we mature we emerge from submission and establish some measure of dominance even if only to assert ourselves as individuals. I think people use what they find works and are prone to wanting what left a deep impression.

I have a great ability to submit but I also have an equally great capacity to dominate. I like submitting more because dominating women is too much work. In myself I can see how the extremes of polarizing one affect or the other make possible relationships that welcome freedom of expression while relieving the pair of the dreary chore of having to constantly maintain a roughly equal footing, which is an unnatural ideal to begin with. Men are dominant. That's life. For a woman to dominate a man she has to be exceptionally assertive and self-possessed. Those are qualities that in women turn me on. Since it turns me on, I like submitting. The essence of that is a constant state of arousal, which in turn is an ever present sense of intimacy. That connection is emotionally delicious.

< Message edited by sockit2me -- 2/21/2011 8:36:19 AM >

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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 8:47:54 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:


ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

Is it an entirely different matter and conversation? I mean I understand what you're getting at. But when I say that I would be unable to become a quality Dom after years of practice and training I'm implying that it doesn't come naturally to me. I could have probably phrased things a bit differently. But what I'm getting at is regardless of how much effort I put forth, I would essentially be "faking" dominance and sadism until the day I die. It just doesn't work for me, I've tried. Juxtaposed with this is my ability to fall into submission quickly, naturally, almost effortlessly. If the shoes fits....


You cannot train or practice to be dominant. I think you may be mixing the term dominant with the term top.
Top's can and are trained. It's an active role, rather than an ability.


Right. I understand the difference. I apologize if I was mixing up the lingo in my previous posts.

I guess this difference between "tops" and "Dominants", "bottoms" and "submissives" cuts to the core of what I was asking about and alluding to in my original post. Yes, one can be trained to be a top or a bottom. But can one be "trained" or "developed" into a true Dominant or submissive? Or is it just something you either have or you don't have?


I don't know if it's important to also characterize the nature of desire. For me, dominating (I should say, "topping") isn't something I merely find enjoyable, it's something I feel a compulsion to do, but always within the context of respect and consent. And that "compulsion" has been present in my psyche as far back as I can recall, long before I was sexually developed and independent of anything that happened in my childhood. I had a very normal upbringing.

I could "learn" to bottom, and regardless of whether I could ever find it enjoyable (I doubt it), I would never have a "compulsion" to do it. I don't just do S&M because it's fun, and I didn't learn the tools/trade of BDSM/S&M acts just for amusement, like picking up tennis or golf. My desire to tie up a man and do things to him is intertwined with lust. If I am attracted to a man, I want to tie him up; it's a more compelling urge/desire than to kiss him or have sex with him, which are the two more common feelings of human reaction when attraction is present. If put into the same room with whatever "dream man" celebrity or rock star, for example, and told I could have 15 minutes to either make out, have sex, or tie him up - it would be a NO BRAINER for me. Bondage it is!

Desires like that aren't just random. I have no idea why I am like that. I recall fascination with male bondage and helplessness back to the age of watching cartoons. I was tying guys up years before I ever had sex. I had more experience with knots and handcuffs than blow jobs by my late teens, hands down. I didn't know what S&M was, and there was no Internet.

My desires to dominate physically are very primal. I don't have to do it every single day, nor do I have to do it in order to achieve orgasm. However, I have to experience it with a man I am physically intimate with, on some level, on a regular basis. And I also cannot relate to a man in terms of lust without having some ideas or distractions about him enduring S&M.

Akasha


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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/21/2011 12:04:02 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

So I guess I'm asking whether that D/s “essence”, that “je ne sais quoi” of BDSM, is truly something you either have or you don't? Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released? Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?

And if you happen to be a “vanilla convert”, do you think it was a matter of you just discovering what had been lying dormant? Or did someone help mold and guide you toward that “essence”? Perhaps it was all just a game at first but then you hit a point where it “clicked” and suddenly became more than a game?

Don't believe verything you read in books. In real life their are no red lines on maps. In real life there are no converts/vanilla's/slaves/or add your own..... just people. I could exchange the word 'essence' for 'deepest-desire' which often times in some people remains just that. In others it becomes expressed and 'looks-like' a relationship dynamic or a kink. Essence changes because of relationship. Just an opinion.


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RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" - 2/22/2011 6:58:24 AM   
agirl


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The kinky activities we get up to are likely because we are a couple of open-minded people who share all sorts of weird things (not necessarily kink related). We don't really think that they are *bdsm-y* as such, a lot of it is more along the lines of * I wonder what this is like*.

M is the dominant and kinky fella, whereas I'm not even submissive, I'm just happy to get into the *bubble* with him and enjoy the thrill of the *you and me* connection we get. It's meant that I've been able to explore anything I've had a passing thought about, as he's happy to *go there* too. He's an exciting and creative person and I'd be regarded as *kinky as hell* now because I met someone that enabled me to go further and futher down that route.

Everything is linked to the fact that we have an M/s relationship, it's not in the *what* it's in the *how and the why*.

agirl









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