RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (Full Version)

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TreasureKY -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/24/2011 4:34:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR
Sod that for a game of soldiers..
Growing old is mandatory, Growing up ISNT
Making peace with the establishment means Im dead
May I RIP



This from a woman who appears to have sat in a bowl of Fruity Pebbles.  [:D]




NorthernGent -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/24/2011 10:29:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I have no idea what you are talking about but if you mean does it show a sign of maturity to grow up and not rebel against authority and everyone else in the world then yes, it does show a sign of maturity.

Pick and choose your battles because you truly believe in what you are doing, not just because they are "authority" or "the establishment" and you think it's kewl to do so.


Didn't you know? He's grown his hair, drinks a few pints of few real ale (for the uninitiated it's a norm outside of the norm) now and again, once advertised for what we call in England "a good old hammering up the back shute", and types bollocks on a message board that really isn't approaching wisdom; so he must be treading new ground.

Good point about battles: can't win 'em all, make sure you win the ones you have to win.




LaTigresse -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/24/2011 1:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually the true sign of maturity is not in accepting the establishment but in the recognition that if you want to change the world, you start by changing yourself instead of demanding everyone else changes to fit you.


This.




cpK69 -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/26/2011 5:46:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually the true sign of maturity is not in accepting the establishment but in the recognition that if you want to change the world, you start by changing yourself instead of demanding everyone else changes to fit you.


This.



While I can see the issue with “demanding everyone else changes to fit you”, I’m still at a loss as to how this works.

What change(s) can one make about themselves that would cause the world to change?

Isn’t there a certain amount of 'accepting the establishment' that goes along with that?

Kim




Arpig -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/26/2011 5:57:20 PM)

Because the establishment always wins, thus accepting that fact is a sign of maturity. You cannot overthrow them on your own and there comes a point where you accept that, it is what it is, and you adjust your life to that fact...you can cave completely or you can do what I did and minimize the effect of thew establishment on your life, but either way you must come to terms with it. the establishment is by definition established...even if you have a total revolution all you do is replace one establishment with another...they are the powers that be, and since they be you must make peace with them in one form or another. In my youth I thought I could ignore it...in my maturity I realize I can only disregard them to a degree...I must have truck with the establishment in one form or another and thus I made peace...so yes making peace is indeed a sign of maturity and wisdom.




pahunkboy -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/26/2011 6:54:57 PM)

Well-  the establishment is the crown.

Lets not be hasty about throwing the towel in.




Arpig -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/26/2011 7:24:39 PM)

quote:

Well-  the establishment is the crown.
well since I am happily a subject of the crown...and a monarchist to boot...I'd say that's all the more reason to just roll over and surrender...you clearly have no hope otherwise




pahunkboy -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/26/2011 7:37:20 PM)

The OP is more of a rebel then you are Arpig.   So his plight and outlook most likely varies.

As Tazz said- we choose our battles- so that is a good assessment.




Arpig -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/26/2011 8:07:59 PM)

I am not a rebel, never claimed to be...I am a non-conformist, I am however a loyal subject of the Queen, because she is the head of the government that grants me my freedom. The OP, in my view isn't a rebel either, seems to me he is just having trouble with the realization we must all come to at some point that the powers that be...well they be, and we must accept that. If he really was a rebel then he wouldn't be posting on here, he'd be on the streets...what can be done in Cairo can be done in London or Washington if enough people agree with you....the problem for radicals in the west is that the vast majority of people are content with things as they are. As much as you feel you are oppressed you really have no clue what oppression is...none of us in the west do, we have lived in freedom for so long that we have no concept of what it really means to not do so. Would I take to the streets? Damn right, watch me if they ever try to turn Canada into a republic...I will be there throwing rocks and bottles




DesFIP -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 5:43:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

While I can see the issue with “demanding everyone else changes to fit you”, I’m still at a loss as to how this works.

What change(s) can one make about themselves that would cause the world to change?

Isn’t there a certain amount of 'accepting the establishment' that goes along with that?

Kim



Do you think Gandhi accepted the establishment? He changed himself, did what he believed was right and caused an end to colonization of India.

It all started with his recognition of himself not with hatred of others.




LaTigresse -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 5:50:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually the true sign of maturity is not in accepting the establishment but in the recognition that if you want to change the world, you start by changing yourself instead of demanding everyone else changes to fit you.


This.



While I can see the issue with “demanding everyone else changes to fit you”, I’m still at a loss as to how this works.

What change(s) can one make about themselves that would cause the world to change?

Isn’t there a certain amount of 'accepting the establishment' that goes along with that?

Kim




It depends upon how you look at it. For myself this is how it works. I accept that, as much as I detest them, some things cannot be changed. As for the things that can be changed, first I feel I must look in the mirror clearly. Much of what bothers us is actually a reflection of us. If I change what I am putting out there, it changes what is reflected back at me.

As an example, I hate biggots and prejudice to the point of sometimes wanting to really hurt or do serious damage to those that express such. The reality, at least for the people that I've known in my life, I cannot just walk up to them and tell them to "Stop it!" explain why they should, and have it be an effective change.

Instead, I realized I needed to look in the mirror. Look at habits of behaviour or thought, that I had, that was a reflection of what I despised. I needed to realize that, to a degree, I was a part of the problem. Then, after that rather uncomfortable recognition, I needed to begin policing myself. It is very easy, when growing up and living in a certain sheltered (sheltered being few people that are diverse culturally or by lifestyle choice) environment, to say you are not racist, sexist, whatever the 'ist' is, yet not remove the signs of such from your thought process and vocabulary. I am not talking of the dramatic and obvious, but the more subtle things that tend to give others around you, liscense with the more dramatic.

Other changes can be as simple as refusing to laugh along with the group at a racist joke. Instead I've just looked at the teller and gotten up and walked away. Leaving the discomfort to them and those that found the telling humorous, or at the very least, acceptable.

That is just one example of how I personally, have not necessarily made peace with what exists, but by changing myself, feel I am changing the status quo.




pahunkboy -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 8:18:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I am not a rebel, never claimed to be...I am a non-conformist, I am however a loyal subject of the Queen, because she is the head of the government that grants me my freedom. The OP, in my view isn't a rebel either, seems to me he is just having trouble with the realization we must all come to at some point that the powers that be...well they be, and we must accept that. If he really was a rebel then he wouldn't be posting on here, he'd be on the streets...what can be done in Cairo can be done in London or Washington if enough people agree with you....the problem for radicals in the west is that the vast majority of people are content with things as they are. As much as you feel you are oppressed you really have no clue what oppression is...none of us in the west do, we have lived in freedom for so long that we have no concept of what it really means to not do so. Would I take to the streets? Damn right, watch me if they ever try to turn Canada into a republic...I will be there throwing rocks and bottles



The government can not give you unalienable rights-  it can never give you more rights then God did.




Arpig -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 8:49:46 AM)

quote:

Do you think Gandhi accepted the establishment?
Yes actually he did.




Arpig -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 8:50:49 AM)

quote:

The government can not give you unalienable rights- it can never give you more rights then God did.
yes it can, in fact that is where you get all your rights




stellauk -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 11:59:37 AM)

I would say maturity is finding peace with the world, society and other people through changing one's perception and understanding that your ability to constantly change your perception is also your ability to resolve conflicts through finding agreement and common ground rather than winning and being right.





PeonForHer -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (2/27/2011 12:08:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Because the establishment always wins, thus accepting that fact is a sign of maturity.


It didn't win in Tunisia or Egypt, and doesn't look like it's going to win in Libya. Vive l'immaturite! (Excuse my poor French. [;)])

Though, granted, it took/is taking a lot of energy from a lot of people . . . .

What I find funny about this subject is those people who believe that they're still sticking two fingers up to the establishment. But even funnier (as well as quite admirable) are those people who think that they've come to an arrangement with the establishment, but really haven't.




cpK69 -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (3/1/2011 6:49:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Do you think Gandhi accepted the establishment?


From what I read, it would seem, he not only acknowledged its existence, had knowledge of how it works, but that he was also directly involved with activities that serve to both empower and regulate the establishment (military and politics). Not to say he strictly adhered to it, but that he, at least to some extent, worked within it.

Am I right in thinking the establishment is not only the elite, and those deemed to be authority, but also anyone on the bottom, and anywhere in between, who advocate a system that uses such distinctions; basically, society itself? If so, and one wishes to influence a societies members, how do they even get their attention to influence, if not from within the system the society lives by? From what I’ve observed during my time here, on the boards, the results of not working from within are generally not favorable.

I don’t think what I have to say about Gandhi, in relation to this topic,would be productive, so I’m going to just leave him alone, and relay any productive thoughts I have toward hate, in my response to La Tigresse’s post.

Kim




cpK69 -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (3/1/2011 6:50:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

That is just one example of how I personally, have not necessarily made peace with what exists, but by changing myself, feel I am changing the status quo.


Not to knock your example, because I think it is certainly a legitimate place to start; but, I’m wondering where the change actually occurs with that approach.

I could do as you suggest with a coworker of mine, and I suspect, it would get him to stop making racist comments, to some degree; either, all together; only in my presence; or, most likely, sometimes in my presence, with periodic reminders. My point is, it will influence his behavior, but I don’t think it will actually change him. In order for that to happen, he must do as you said, look in the mirror, and realize, what is really bothering him is a reflection of himself; the affects of what he sends out, as a result of his lack of willingness to accept his limits.

Is there a next step to personal change that influences that kind of change in the world?

I’m curious about your statement of hating bigots and prejudice; what causes you to feel so strongly about them?

Kim




pyroaquatic -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (3/1/2011 7:28:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR
Sod that for a game of soldiers..
Growing old is mandatory, Growing up ISNT
Making peace with the establishment means Im dead
May I RIP



This from a woman who appears to have sat in a bowl of Fruity Pebbles.  [:D]



I do believe they are sprinkles.

Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62


According to that compass I am somewhere along the lines of Ghandi or the Dali Lama. I find that interesting but moving on....

quote:

Making peace with the Establishment ?


From the day of birth people are integrated with what is established as reality. As others have said-and I wholeheartedly agree-making peace with yourself is making peace with the establishment.

This reality is not static. The same goes for maturity.

Rebellions are not exactly good and Establishments are not exactly evil. I see it as a feedback loop. When establishments become ungrounded with reality and separate from what actually is to what it should be (according to those in the depths of said establishment) rebellion occurs.

If one does not believe one is truely free then one can always die. That would show them bastards. In earnest it is all a carnival ride.

I think that makes sense. Does that make sense?




Lucylastic -> RE: Making peace with the Establishment ? (3/1/2011 7:37:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR
Sod that for a game of soldiers..
Growing old is mandatory, Growing up ISNT
Making peace with the establishment means Im dead
May I RIP



This from a woman who appears to have sat in a bowl of Fruity Pebbles.  [:D]



heheheheh  exactly, altho I do believe they are sugar sprinkles. [:D][:D][:D]




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