Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 6:44:44 PM)

Every thread that has to do with Israel ends up in a flame war. That doesn't bother me. You know what else, what they do over there doesn't bother me either except for what they do with their US foreign aid, which is the highest in the world, although they do not have the greatest need. Thank AIPAC for that. They just funnel enough money back to lobby for more money. It should be stopped but I really don't care after seeing the other waste going on. It doesn't matter.

Bring your bullsit here. Answer one question. Just one question. All youse schmart folks oughtta be able to answer one simple question. If not both sides of this argument will have no respect on which to count from me. I have one question. I would like it handled as a debate rather than a flamewar, if you are up to it. Consider it a test.

(scroll down)





















Answer this one question :

What causes anti-Semitism ?

I am unlikely to post again in this thread. But boys and girls (and anyone in between), you are under scrutiny now. Your responses will determine some things for me, after careful judgement. Remember I don't care what they do over there, only what they do here.

Anyone up to it ?

T^T




Hillwilliam -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 7:12:04 PM)

hmmmmmmmmmm.

I think it has multiple causes.

Jealousy. There are a LOT of uber successful Jews. Some folks seem to think that success has nothing to do with hard work so they assume that it was given to them.

Religious. Jews are called "God's chosen people" in the Bible. This tends to piss off non Jews.

Cultural. Their culture is ancient and some say secretive. This induces paranoia.

Political. 1600 or so years ago, the emergent Catholic church was in a bit of a power struggle for control. They won control by assimilating those groups they could and denigrating and exterminating those they couldn't.

As European civilization has Catholic roots (much as some of us deny it) Anti-Semitism came along as part of the baggage train.



I think that is about as non flam warish as possible. Anyone else got anything I missed?




kdsub -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 7:12:25 PM)

I believe there is more than one reason...but for Christians it was, at first, the crucifixion of Christ and based strictly on religion.

Then there is the propensity for Jews to remain as a group within a particular society. This was often misunderstood through the ages I believe and further isolated them and gave rise to accusations of discrimination both by and on the Jews. This type of anti-Semitism can be outside of religion and more social.

Today of course anti-Semitism it is passed from father to son with no real reason …at least in the Christian world.

It takes very little for discrimination to take root in any society but religion tops the list.

Butch




gungadin09 -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 7:17:01 PM)

The same thing that causes any other type of prejudice. Fear of the unknown. i don't think that any more "rational" reason exists. People are suspicious of, and fear, and hate what they don't understand. That fear extends to any person that they don't understand, for being "different" for whatever reason.

pam




DCWoody -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 9:08:32 PM)

Mixing of 'race' (which it's 'evil' to judge by) with religion (which it's legitimate, almost required, to).




tweakabelle -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 9:46:54 PM)

There are a number of varying definitions of anti-Semitism floating around and unless we are clear about what exactly is meant by the term, there is a chance of inadvertently starting yet another flame war. I would hate to do that.

So, can we agree that anti-Semitism is racism or religious discrimination/hatred/abuse directed at those of the Jewish race or faith? The core concept is that Jewish people and/or the Jewish religion are judged by a different standard than other races or religions.

Is this definition OK with people or is there a better one available?




tazzygirl -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 9:58:09 PM)

Because, like any other group, they are "different".

They hold to their own laws. (Sound familiar?)

They follow their own religion (familiar again?)

They amased a great amount of wealth ( yet again familiar)

They are "different" and "different" scares people.




Arpig -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 9:58:17 PM)

Ignorance




gungadin09 -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (2/28/2011 10:37:57 PM)

Thank God the question has now been "settled" once and for all. i'm sure there will be no more bickering. Right, Termy?

pam




Termyn8or -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 6:00:26 AM)

Now that you put it that way I will respond. To myself I guess, or to everybody who has thusfar kept this civil. But everyone isn't here yet. Oh well. I am at GMT-5, which means it is noon in England (I think).

Without moving forward much, I will respond on a point by point basis.

"I think it has multiple causes. "

Mmhmm.

"There are a LOT of uber successful Jews. Some folks seem to think that success has nothing to do with hard work so they assume that it was given to them."

Mmhmm.

"Political. 1600 or so years ago, the emergent Catholic church was in a bit of a power struggle for control. They won control by assimilating those groups they could and denigrating and exterminating those they couldn't. "

Not quite. One King of France declared " For every ($) they pay us, they take ten from our people ". Later, in France, they were required to "take" the Christian faith, via oath. This led to what's known as the Kol Nidre, which is to be taken every year. The prayer, for those who are not pharisic, means that they are indemnified for lying. That they can disobey the Commandment against bearing false witness, that they can lie with inpunity with their God.

"I think that is about as non flam warish as possible. Anyone else got anything I missed? "

Nice job. Kudos. I do.

"I believe there is more than one reason"

No shit.

"the propensity for Jews to remain as a group within a particular society."

Really ? Not that it has been outlined in the Torah many times or anything. There just like everyone else, but separate. So were the Black students that George Wallace wouldn't let into the university. Separatism seems to be reserved for only the chos....;nevermind.

"This was often misunderstood through the ages "

So many times ? Count the number of pogroms in the last millenia.

"Today of course anti-Semitism it is passed from father to son with no real reason "

If so, why ? Would you pass on lies to your own kin, your progeny, that which makes your mark on the world, they who actually cast your shadow after you are gone ? Would you lie ? Did they ?

"It takes very little for discrimination to take root in any society but religion tops the list."

Don't fucking mince words. Discrimination is a different word.You discriminate everything, from the coffee you drink to the broads you fuck. To what kind of cars or carpet you buy. To who you hire if you are in a position to do so. When I'm hiring the only color that means anything to me is green. Can the assholes say the same ?

"The same thing that causes any other type of prejudice. Fear of the unknown."

What about fear of the known ? In one side of the mouth we say those who refuse to learn from history are bound to repeat it, and out the other side say to "just forget" certain things. Well that just doesn't fucking fly anymore. And they will never forget, but we should.

"Mixing of 'race' (which it's 'evil' to judge by) with religion (which it's legitimate, almost required, to). "

Let me disect that real quick. ' Mixing of 'race' with religion'. You put it in quotes because you see it as an abstract concept. Because you have never lived those other lives. Because you don't know about chosen family or chosen loyalty. It is a foreign concept. It's not foreign to me. My people are my people. I will kill for them and probably die for them. Others can go fuck themselves. Yuo take your pick though, I don't use biological means to choose my people. You want it you give it. You give it you get it.

"(Sound familiar?) "

Yes it does.

"Ignorance "

No doubt.

So now stage one is complete I think. Look at the responses and you see ignorance, unknowing, fear of the unknown and with you saying it, adversity against the unknown. It's obvious that I had a plan when I started this thread, anyone with a half a brain could see that. I think many here might have more than half, perhaps 60 or 70 percent ! LOL. But what brought you here ? I know. You wanted to express things, and not have the namecalling etc., and maybe make a little more sense out of this ball of confusion we call Earth.

Each of you who responded has doubts about the official story. Each of you doesn't quite believe everything you are told. Otherwise you would have not responded in this venue, or would have done so in a way that would be unbecoming to you. But that didn't happen.

It may be only us seven or eight people in the world, but maybe we can examine the situation. Pam came out with it, let's get the defiitions straight. What is a Semite ? Exactly.

Again, you answer. I am simply asking the question.

T^T




Louve00 -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 6:08:19 AM)

I think I'm opting out of this quiz (but, like you, will probably just watch and learn) [;)]




Aneirin -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 12:07:51 PM)

 In answer to your original question, I believe the reason why there is so much antipathy towards Jews, is a complex one, and one that history has a large part to play in, let alone the current situation with the Palestine/Israel situation. I believe with so much emphasis on what has been, i.e. history, memories are the problem, and memories that are also handed down from father to son, dislike based upon past dislike, and dislike because it is human nature to fear the unknown, i.e. easy to form.

Other factors that I perceive are a reason to dislike include their wealth, but not all Jews are wealthy, their religious arrogance, but when was the last time a Jew was arrogant towards yourelf regarding their race/religion, and for that matter, unless they have told you, how would you know they were Jewish, oh, yeah, the stereotypes, the supposed nose or if you knew it the last name might be an indicator, but how accurate is that. Then there are Jews and Jews, they like other religious beliefs have their different sects, so there are the staunch adherants and there are those that question it all.

What other reason is there to dislike, oh yeah,the holocaust, not that it happened, but the perception that the happening is being used for political advantage and leverage, well, it could be true that some are using their past, perhaps not the ones who actually suffered it, but those descendants there of that believe they know and are aware of the conversation limiting properties of calling people names, especially names that hold similarities to that thing the latter part of the twentieth century upto the present has designated the ultimate evil towards people; racism. The only trouble with using the charge of antisemitism all the time, or where it should not be applied, is it waters down the charge, as the time will come where the words and their attached meaning: anti semitism holds no more power than a basic common or garden insult and with that, when true anti semitism is apparent, it won't be noticed, and who does that hurt the most, none but Jews who are in receipt of racist treatment if that is what it is, the crying wolf syndrome has done it's worst.

The other thing I particularly perceive, is the fact that in my case I am coming to the conclusion that I have to censor my own questions and comments for fear of upsetting a Jew, for it seems to me some are a little too touchy, and I do understand why, what factors would create that sensitivity, but their intolerance for others becomes a little tiresome, for they are not the only people in the world, others that seek to know and understand have the right to ask questions without being barraged with racist commentry, as all that does, is actually create disharmony, where before there might not have been.  They, the Jews, must remember they are the masters of their own public perception.

But no doubt, and I am expecting it, what I have written here, as a person who despite the insults the intolerant have levied, still wishes to seek a way forward, will receive charges of anti semitism from the intolerant, who do their race/belief no favours in this modern world.











jlf1961 -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 12:35:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because, like any other group, they are "different".

They hold to their own laws. (Sound familiar?)

They follow their own religion (familiar again?)

They amased a great amount of wealth ( yet again familiar)

They are "different" and "different" scares people.



Yankees are different!

They started the war of NORTHERN AGGRESSION.

Texas should leave the Union and give the BUSH family back to the United States. They nothing but transplanted Yankees anyway.




Moonhead -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 12:41:18 PM)

Are you saying that wasn't the chimp's real accent?
[sm=jaw.gif]





mnottertail -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 12:49:27 PM)

Apparently his accent was RINO, somewitch akin to your Welsh, I should imagine.




jlf1961 -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 1:00:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Are you saying that wasn't the chimp's real accent?
[sm=jaw.gif]



Born July 6, 1946 (1946-07-06) (age 64)
New Haven, Connecticut
Birth name George Walker Bush




kdsub -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 1:02:42 PM)

Termy you asked if I would pass on lies to my children...depending on the perspective lies to you may be truths to me. I have found there are very few absolute truths in this world and when it comes to human nature there are none.

If a father believes something about another and passes it along to his son is it lying. Do you think the average Palestinian would say it was a lie when disparaging a Jew for instance?

One final question to you…do you believe there are any societies or groups of people in this world that are deserving of discrimination? I think so and if you were to pass this along to your child would you be lying? And if not then is only your way of looking at the world the correct one?

This world is very complicated and we as individuals can not experience life in every society so who are we to be the absolute judge.

I figure I’ll feel my way about people according to my conscience and as I pass through and experience life I’ll contribute to my societies way of looking at other peoples of the world. As a group we will change or not.

Butch




FukinTroll -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 2:34:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am unlikely to post again in this thread. But boys and girls (and anyone in between), you are under scrutiny now. Your responses will determine some things for me, after careful judgement. Remember I don't care what they do over there, only what they do here.

Anyone up to it ?

T^T


I abhor this part of the forums, but I think I needed to point out that: No one really gives a fuck what you think of them, unless they are going to lure you into their personal dynamic as X.

Jus say'n.




mnottertail -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 2:39:59 PM)

And here I am fuckin around with an entire XY chromasomal dynamic which sort of leaves me dangling outside a personal dynamic that would include a judgement finale.

Although, I must confess, I would sorta like to be a consestant on Jeopardy.


ChromasoNe!  Give me those nice soft colors....




FukinTroll -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/1/2011 3:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And here I am fuckin around with an entire XY chromasomal dynamic which sort of leaves me dangling outside a personal dynamic that would include a judgement finale.

Although, I must confess, I would sorta like to be a consestant on Jeopardy.


ChromasoNe!  Give me those nice soft colors....


Damn it Hup, I was banking on the whole idea that you weren't a fake. Just had to go and fuk that idea up for me didn't ya?




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