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Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:10:53 PM   
truckinslave


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I'm not at all sure this rises to the level of impeachment. My personal, non-lawyerly guess is that 0bama0 and Holder, carefully walking the line between "defend" and "enforce" have broken no law.

But I do dream of the day when a Republican administration says: "We will not defend any legal challenge to 0bama0Care". Or, if its already dead before a Republican administration is elected, how about: " We will not defend any legal challenge to any federal gun law. We believe them to be unconstitutional".

This is a seriously dangerous course for the ship of state to tack....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:12:19 PM   
mnottertail


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Arizona.  Yeah, next time let's just phone it in.  How we doing on the fuckin debt?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:17:32 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Arizona.  Yeah, next time let's just phone it in.  How we doing on the fuckin debt?

quote:

I do dream of the day when a Republican administration says: "We will not defend any legal challenge to 0bama0Care". Or, if its already dead before a Republican administration is elected, how about: " We will not defend any legal challenge to any federal gun law. We believe them to be unconstitutional".


I do dream of the day when a Republican administration says: "We will not defend any legal challenge to 0bama0Care". Or, if its already dead before a Republican administration is elected, how about: " We will not defend any legal challenge to any federal gun law. We believe them to be unconstitutional".

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:20:22 PM   
rulemylife


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Just your typical Republican bullshit.

Didn't we have enough of this when Clinton was in office?


(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:20:31 PM   
mnottertail


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It didnt fall all the way into the hole (alotta ways it did fall in)  when W made his signing statements, saying he had no intention of defending anything he didnt want to defend or uphold.

So, yeah, I dream of the day when republicans are honest and want to compromise.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:22:36 PM   
truckinslave


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Do you care to address the point of the thread?

I do dream of the day when a Republican administration says: "We will not defend any legal challenge to 0bama0Care". Or, if its already dead before a Republican administration is elected, how about: " We will not defend any legal challenge to any federal gun law. We believe them to be unconstitutional".

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:22:52 PM   
DomKen


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I guess truckin doesn't know that this isn't the first time an administration has chosen not to defend a statute in court and also doesn't know that the previous administration openly refused to enforce laws that were on the books.

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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:28:40 PM   
truckinslave


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Actually, I don't support signing statements that go beyond a simple statement of ones understanding of the intent of the bill...
most of which are largely incomprehensible gibberish.

How loudly would you wail if President (Palin/Gingrich/Walker) refused to defend anti-gun laws?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:29:12 PM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Do you care to address the point of the thread?

I do dream of the day when a Republican administration says: "We will not defend any legal challenge to 0bama0Care". Or, if its already dead before a Republican administration is elected, how about: " We will not defend any legal challenge to any federal gun law. We believe them to be unconstitutional".


I tell you what, I'll address it when you graduate from junior high and stop using your amazingly clever "libtards" and "Obama0".

Doesn't actually do a lot to promote useful discussion.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:29:37 PM   
mnottertail


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Pretty fuckin loud, since none of them have been elected to that august office.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:30:23 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

previous administration openly refused to enforce laws that were on the books.


No, I didn't know that. Still don't.

Care to address:

I do dream of the day when a Republican administration says: "We will not defend any legal challenge to 0bama0Care". Or, if its already dead before a Republican administration is elected, how about: " We will not defend any legal challenge to any federal gun law. We believe them to be unconstitutional".


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:31:26 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
getting in touch with your inner fleebagger?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:41:33 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

getting in touch with your inner fleebagger?


No.

I'm just a little curious what you seem to think the subject of the thread is.

You post a link on impeachment and ignore it, then on two different posts you seem to want someone to validate your pipe dreams.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:42:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

previous administration openly refused to enforce laws that were on the books.


No, I didn't know that. Still don't.


Well then perhaps you'd like to take a look at the signing statement on the McCain amendment for starters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detainee_Treatment_Act

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:47:40 PM   
truckinslave


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I suppose you construe that signing statement to be a refusal to enforce the statute, but I can't see how.

Even the Boston Globe seems to have presented a rebuttal to your position: "an anonymous senior administration official saying, "Of course the president has the obligation to follow this law, (but) he also has the obligation to defend and protect the country as the commander in chief, and he will have to square those two responsibilities in each case. We are not expecting that those two responsibilities will come into conflict, but it's possible that they will".[7]

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 2:57:29 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
The law is quite clear and this statement
quote:

"The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act, relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power, which will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President, evidenced in Title X, of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks

proclaims quite clearly that it won't be enforced universally. Otherwise why the statement in the first place?

And that's just one of the 700+ times the Bush administration declared it would not enforce a law passed by Congress and signed by Bush.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 3:24:36 PM   
KenDckey


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When I created the thread DOMA is Dead someone pointed out that this was not a precident setting move.   It has been done before.   I believed then, and I believe now, that this was a really stupid move exactly because then the next Republican administration could in fact refuse to defend Obama care.   And that it would very easily be declared unconstitutional. 

The issue is when do we give up in litigation.   When we get out of District court?   When we get out of Appeals Court?   or when SCOTUS is finished?  

Disregarding the specific issue and looking only at the process - I know way to many can't get past the issue - I believe that this circumvents the judicial process in the checks and balances system.   If a Pres decides to direct the DOJ not to respond to an action brought by someone, then that action wins by default.   The judge calls the case, the fed does nothing  and may not even show, the judge has no recourse but to award the case to the plaintiff.  

To me, the Fed has to take a duly passed law all the way to SCOTUS every time no exceptions.  Unless they win of course.   Let SCOTUS blow it off if they want, but DOJ is there to support the laws that have been duly passed.   And to proscitue those that fail to follow those laws - you know like homeland security failing to enforce the immigration laws (for example only)

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 3:33:17 PM   
truckinslave


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Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

then that action wins by default.


An excellent post (all posts with which I am in near total agreement are by definition excellent )

I quibble only to add that I think other defenses to challenged laws would still be allowed (amicus curae etc, and perhaps associated attorneys).

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 4:35:59 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
So you're both in favor of locking up Bush, his AG's and his SG's? Should we stop there or do we go after all the people who gave legal advice on the issue as well?

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Impeachment talk - 3/4/2011 4:57:16 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
When I created the thread DOMA is Dead someone pointed out that this was not a precident setting move.   It has been done before.   [...]


I originally posted the following on the DOMA is dead thread:
quote:

ORIGINAL eihwaz
POTUS will no longer defend the law against constitutional challenge, but will continue to enforce it. While rare, such stances by POTUS are not without precedent:

In the case of Metro Broadcasting, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission, 497 U.S. 547 (1990), Acting Solicitor General John G. Roberts declined to defend the constitutionality of certain statutes requiring minority preferences in broadcast licensing and, in fact, urged the Court to declare them unconstitutional.  (SCOTUS rejected Acting SG Roberts's arguments by a 5-4 vote.)

United States v. Lovett (328 U.S. 303 (1946).  The SG, representing the United States as defendant, nonetheless joined with those who argued that a particular statute was an unconstitutional bill of attainder.  (The SCOTUS agreed.)

INS v. Chadha (462 U.S. 919 (1983).  Pursuant to a provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act, the INS implemented a "one house veto" of the House of Representatives that ordered the INS to overturn its suspension of Chadha's suspension.  Nonetheless, the INS -- represented by the SG -- argued that the one house veto provision was unconstitutional.

Morrison v. Olson (487 U.S. 654 (1988).  Pursuant to the Ethics in Government Act of 1978, the AG requested appointment of an independent counsel to investigate possible wrongdoing by a Department official.  The SG appeared before the SCOTUS as amicus curiae to argue that the independent counsel provisions of the Act violated the constitutional separation of powers.

Simkins v. Moses H. Cone Memorial Hospital (323 F.2d 959 4th Circuit, 1963).  A federal statute permitted the Surgeon General to condition federal funding for hospital construction on assurance of an applying State that the hospital facilities in question did not discriminate on account of race.  However, the statute also explicitly instructed the Surgeon General to make an exception to this requirement where discrimination was accompanied by so-called "separate but equal" hospital facilities for all races.  The Surgeon General subsequently approved funding under the statute for hospitals which were openly discriminatory.  The DoJ intervened on behalf of the United States in a private class action brought by black physicians, dentists, and patients against the hospitals, and joined the plaintiffs in arguing against the constitutionality of the statute.

Turner Broadcasting Svs. Inc. v FCC (93-94, 512 U.S. 622, 1994).  Sections 4 and 5 of the Cable Television Consumer Protection and Competition Act of 1992 (the "must carry" provisions) require cable operators to carry on their systems a prescribed number of signals of local commercial and qualified noncommercial stations.  The Act was enacted over President George H.W. Bush's veto.  The President stated that one of the reasons for his veto was that the must carry provisions were unconstitutional.  In subsequent litigation challenging the constitutionality of the must carry provisions, the DoJ declined to defend the their constitutionality "consistent with President Bush's veto message to Congress."

There are others as well.  Representative Franks seems misinformed regarding the legality of refusing to defend a law against constitutional challenge as well about the grounds for impeaching a POTUS.

And then there were all those GWB signing statements...


(in reply to KenDckey)
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