RE: Can integrity be taught? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

Tikkiee -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/5/2006 6:43:19 PM)

quote:

More along the lines of someone who is ignorant (not stupid) to these concepts in the lifestyle;

Sorry, but I have a real problem with this phrase. The way you say it, it sounds as if you are saying that only those within the lifestyle should have these things.
Integerity, honesty, character; they are all things that most are taught through life itself; it's not something that one gains when they 'adopt a lifestyle'. These are acquired from watching others, and adopting them because you feel that it is right.
As for if it can be 'taught' later in life? Personally, I don't think that you can teach basic morals to a person. They either have them or they don't.



Proprietrix -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/5/2006 6:56:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

quote:

More along the lines of someone who is ignorant (not stupid) to these concepts in the lifestyle;

Sorry, but I have a real problem with this phrase. The way you say it, it sounds as if you are saying that only those within the lifestyle should have these things.
Integerity, honesty, character; they are all things that most are taught through life itself; it's not something that one gains when they 'adopt a lifestyle'. .........


I didn't mean it like that. (Sorry it came across that way.)
I do believe that there's a different set of morals/ethics some people, involved in certain groups in the lifestyle learn though.
For instance, a vanilla person really has no need to learn how to handle a flogging scene gone bad with integrity. Nor would they need to learn how to be honrable in punishing their slave, or how to show good character in taking a 4th lover into a poly home.
These aren't things our parents teach us in the process of teaching us integrity. Many parents, in fact, teach their children that it is NOT showing good character to want to beat women, or have more than one lover in their bed, or do many of the other things that we do.



KnightofMists -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/5/2006 7:22:51 PM)

Can integrity be taught?

Yes like alot of other character strenghts it can be taught.  However, the effectiveness of teaching Principles of Integirty in particular are very much open to debate and no study I know of has actually measured a particular approach as more or less effective in improving integrity.  So, therefore I suspect any approach must be considered in relationship to the situation and also have measurable results.  In others words, set goals of behavior that will demonstrate integrity.  You will therefore need to consider what specific behaviors that you would like your particular student to absorb and become part of their general character.  These specific behaviors and goals should be clearly communicated and understood by your student.

But, what is it that you mean by integrity?  In general, I consider integrity not just the act of speaking truthfully, but more importantly it is about taking responsibility for ones feels and actions one takes.  Keep in mind that as the teacher you are more likely to inhibiting factors to achieve those goals you have than to teach enabling factors to improve integrity.  Consider the simple sitution of being at a munch.  You express openly and positively the enjoyment of many individuals at the munch.  To some you actually are actually very direct in appreciating their time.  Even those you have a particular distaste, your behavior is polite and even mildly friendly.  After being away from such a gathering and in privacy of your own environment you share deeper thoughts of distaste for some of those you just spent time with.  We do this kind of behaviors all the time.  We do it with our young and we do it in our intimate relationship.  How many parents have taugh their young not to speak negatively when recieving a gift.... frankly how many 12 year old boys like clothes for christmas?  Not to many I suspect.... but we teach them to be deceptive of there thoughts and feelings.

My point in all this... when we are trying to build character of our submissive.  I suggest taking an approach from a broader prespective.... "I as Dominant wish my house to have a Higher degree of Integrity"  and here is the behaviors WE shall strive to do or not do!  It not a question of leading by example... but getting in the trenches with the submissive... by striving to achieve the same behaviors... supporting each other in achieving those goals.

It is my view that moral vitues are manifested thru character strenghts (such as integrity) into demonstrated behaviors.  By working backwards we can end up with stronger moral virtues



Proprietrix -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/5/2006 7:36:49 PM)

Thank you KoM. I found that very helpful. [:)]



Alumbrado -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/5/2006 7:55:00 PM)

Well, I will take the contrarian view, and say that I do not think that traits such as integrity can be taught to adults lacking them, nor would I undertake to mentor or train someone whom I did not believe possessed such a quality.

If C. Ray Jeffrey is to be believed, integrity needs to be imprinted between 2 and 5ish, or it is too late, and if Victor Frankl is to be believed, it needs to be exercised constantly lest it atrophy, and not be there when one needs it most.



LadiesBladewing -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 2:59:59 AM)

I hope this actually answers the question you asked from my perspective.

You can teach people behaviors. You can model appropriate behaviors. You can teach by example. You can say "In this lifestyle situation, this is how we behave because doing this other thing that you -might- want to do is considered rude/unethical/uncivilized." However, by the time people are adults, they are either ethical or they're not. If they are not ethical, training them in the appropriate behaviors won't make them ethical, and the training probably won't last beyond the time that they're out of your sight -- after that, they'll do what they please. If they -are- ethical, they'll consider your reasoning, and the input of the community, and make suitable decisions both in the trainer's presence and once they've left training status.

The hardest thing, for me, is that few months of getting below the facade to find out what kind of person you really have beneath the layers of "show". If I find, through experience, that an individual's ethics and mine conflict severely, and that this person is really not making any effort to accept the ethical boundaries of our household, no matter how attractive they may be in other areas, they're gone... No amount of technically skilled service is going to make up for being a poor ethical fit for us.

Lady Zephyr



Dustyn -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 3:13:39 AM)

Integrity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder... and it is always subject to the situation you find yerself in, also... I figure as long as I can stand to look at my reflection in the mirror, I'm not that bad off... granted, done a lot of things I'm not proud of doing, but hey, haven't we all?

- Dustyn



KnightofMists -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 9:26:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix

Thank you KoM. I found that very helpful. [:)]


Your Welcome

A good basic book is "Character Strengths and Virtues" by Peterson and Seligman.  Martine E.P. Seligman is very much an advocate of the Positive Psychology field.  It his assertion that our postive character strength and traits are essential in the various relms of our life and are an important means to endure and fight misforturne and negative emotions, but also are critically important to leading us to increasingly levels of authentic contentment, gratfications, and meaning.

Dr. Seligman is professor at the University of Pennsylvania, the director of the Positive Psychology Network and a former President of the American Psychological Association.  He has written over 20 books including the above meantion book. "CS and V" gives a classifications of the character strengths and traits that his team put together and alot of reference material for further research and consideration.  Integrity being one of the strengths that they reviewed and express within this book.  These various stengths that this book highlights are found across cultural boundaries as well as seen in a historical context.  This is not light reading! 




Wolf1020 -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 11:16:16 AM)

Can integrity be taught?

Yes it can.

The problem is it can only be taught to children, once someone is grown they pretty much either have integrity or don't.  That can change in a grown person, but not by any level of teaching and only from the person themselves.



Mavis -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 12:21:01 PM)

i think there is much you can do with your charges in this area. i think of it more as integrity awareness than teaching integrity.

If we take the view that "integrity" is defined as integrating actions, attitudes,  and behaviors with our core values, almost everyone actually has integrity.  We regularly act in accordance with our values.  The problem is there is a hierarchy of values that changes depending on which realm we are operating in.  (not exactly situational ethics, as that implies.  please bear with me.)

for example, we almost all have these two values..
1)   I want to BE a nice / good person.
2)   I want to be SEEN as a nice/ good person.

#1 applies with our friends, family, people we truly care about. 
#2 applies at work maybe, or on the bus, or at a munch, to use KoMs example.

Operating on  # 2  is why we may say "Nice to see you." at munch, when we're really not at all thrilled about a certain person.  
Operating on # 1 with best friend is why we can say "orange is definately not your color.", once we've decided the best thing for that friend is brutal honesty and is therefore a "good" thing to do.   An observer who is paying close attention to model your behaviors, (your child, your submissive, an apprentice of sorts, etc)  will notice and question the conflicting standards of honesty vs deception.   And even question how it applies to them.. "If I know mommy hates the dress grandma gave her, but mommy said it was very nice, did she also hate the picture I drew that she said was very nice?"  

So, back to training a sub,  you create ample opportunities for sub to really analyze their internal values structure, or as you instill yours, then check their behaviors against this list.  You can create an awareness in them of which values get the highest priorities, and if the automatic response to a situation actually reflected the Real importance of that particular value.  In this way You as a D. or M. can influence the "integration" of behavior to values, and the actual hierarchy of those values.

Most good D/ or M do that already;
"was  (-- blank behavior or attitude --)  in accordance with what you know to be My standards?"  
If not,  it shows a place where the subs values have not been replaced by the D or M values, and there is still a choice conflict.   Most internal training is swapping out subs/ slaves standards for Dominants / Masters standards. 

IMHO,  you start by getting the sub/ trainee aware of their values system..  then aware of the new values to adopt, then aware of  Which we believe more.

a sub may believe these two things:
1)   My goal is to make D or M happy.
2)  My goal is to obey D or M.

Now, when sub disobeys,  does he or she confess, to address value # 2   Or hide it, to address value # 1 , because confession will surely not make Master happy. 

Ah!  If Master has made clear that obedience is more important than making Master happy at all costs, then sub knows which to choose.  or if Master has made clear that honesty is what makes Master happy, should we then disobey to confess and make Master happy ?  LOL. 

Training us in the hierarchy of Your priorities and charging us with constantly evaluating how what we think / do applies to the standards we claim we want to adopt to please our One...  now there ya go.  When You do this, You are teaching us the integrity we want, the integration of your values and our behaviors.  yum.

~offered humbly to share one of my favorite topics.

P.S.  here is a great link on integrity from stanford...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/integrity/






sweetbbwsub31 -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 12:41:39 PM)

In my opinion it has a lot to do with how you were raised. However, everyone can learn if they are open to it.



slavejali -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 2:02:16 PM)

Integrity can be taught but agree with what most posters have said, if its not taught in childhood, it can be an uphill battle for an adult to actualise the concept. They might even need something with the force of "boot-camp" to get it sunk in their head.
First they have to be introduced to it, then they have to see it in action, then they would need to have the *want* to embrace it in their own lives.

Being involved in any form of martial arts can introduce people to general life principals in a non-confronting way. In Taekwondo for example the tennants that every practitoner is supposed to be mindful of are, courtesy, integrity, self-control, perseverance and indomitable spirit. Underneath the physical aspects of martial arts is the goal to have Mastery of Self and the tennants provide guidelines for that.

Integrity to me is the ability to know what is wrong and right combined with the ability to enaction that in your life through the choices you make. This is where the problem lays in someone learning about integrity...what is wrong and right? Some would say it is different for everyone and much confusion would abound around integrity in that regard. Who or what is the wrong and right police? Just because you believe in a certain way of living and being in the world and you stick to that, does that mean you are in integrity? Depending on peoples desires at any given moment, that is usually the foundation for choices in life being made...does this amount to integrity? Integrity has to be based on something other than that...and with no pre-defined explanation or guideline of what is wrong and right, its very hard to even begin to touch integrity in any real way.

In my mind, I think the only person who can teach integrity is a *real* Master...and I used the word *real* purposefully...meaning to me..someone who already has Mastery over Self. You cannot pass on what you have not totally embraced yourself basically.



KnightofMists -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 2:04:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/integrity/


Mavis .. I very much enjoyed you thoughts on integrity.  This floating value system is indeed a very core aspect when dealing and enhancing the integrity of oneself and others. 

I agree that an important starting point is the submissive and the Dominant understanding the value systems they have in place and then establishing goals to where one wants to get to.   It's kind of like driving from point A to point B.  You need to know where point B is in relationship to point A... otherwise you just might end up at Point 1.  Knowing where is Point A is and where Point B is... you can begin to consider pathways to get to point B.

The link is excellent... alot of great articles on that website... but not for just light reading that is for sure.  I have enjoy that website for some time.  Alot of the articles are printed and filed in my filing cabinet.

again... thanks for expanding on the whole concept of Integrity Empowerment!



merrymasochist -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 3:32:27 PM)

Can integrity be taught? Possibly, but only by those who are willing to make the time, effort and commitment it would take and only to those who truly want learn and are willing to put in the same time, effort and commitment it would require.

Interesting question Proprietrix. Thank you.

Sincerely,
merry



classykindasassy -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 6:07:12 PM)

As a life coach, this is what I do to a large extent. It is only simple when my own integrity is in.

I like what Loki said about "topping yourself" on this item. You can't teach it successfully without first having mastery yourself. I am learning too that one must be in constant examination of where one is not being true to oneself (tolerating things that don't work) and not keeping one's given word, and clean that stuff up continually.

That said, what teaches integrity is you applying consequences, much like a master teaches a dog to heel and walk on a lead with a choke chain. Properly applied discipline works by the student interacting with consequences HE CAUSES by not honoring his word, his commitments, himself (or "her" as case may be). Like the dog's life goes just fine until he fights the lead and choke chain, so should the student's.

You must be willing to cause your sub/slave to make real commitments and then uphold consequences when broken. Many people are just not willing to apply the energy needed to do this. But the rewards in the growth and devotion of a sane sub/slave are wonderful.

Hope this sheds light.



unquenchable -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 6:37:35 PM)

I think we all learn by example. 

I know fast response, but the only one I think holds merit.

un------------



juliaoceania -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 8:53:25 PM)

I think this is not just a lifestyle question, but it is also just a human nature question, can we be improved ethically by our interactions with others? Can others influence our personal growth and teach us to be better people? From my point of view the only way ANYONE becomes a better, more honorable, stronger, and more capable person is by interacting with others that influence them.... I have the followng example:

When my mom  first married my father he constantly told my her "white lies" so she would not give him grief about what he wanted to do. My mom being a very honest person with much character was so bent out of shape by this .. she really could not understand it. Through his interactions with her, he became an honest person. It took her time to "teach" him about why honesty was important, and believe me, he did. I never heard my father lie. He grew into owning what truth was and living that life. That is just my experience though, others may have different ones.



UtopianRanger -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 10:35:34 PM)

quote:

I'm wondering how people (be it mentors to mentees, Dominant to submissive, Owner to charge, etc...) teach concepts like intergrity and honor and character.


To keep it short..... No, I don't think integrity can be taught. It has to be ''realized'' and then understood, instead.


 - R



Lordandmaster -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 10:43:48 PM)

I agree completely.  Talking to someone about it can help, but if they're not ready to listen, everything just goes in one ear and out the other.  Usually people learn integrity when they discover on their own that integrity is its own reward.



ElectraGlide -> RE: Can integrity be taught? (5/6/2006 11:03:16 PM)

Integrity cannot be taught, if you dont come out of your youth with it your out of luck. Your integrity is your inner conscious guiding you to use your self discipline to not stray away from doing what is right. You hold yourself accountable for your actions instead of blaming someone else. You can look in the mirror and see what is looking back and you just know whether you have honor or your a piece of garbage or not. People can warp their views and think they have integrity and yet they dont even have the pride to hold a job and help provide for their family.



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.46875