Is Islam the Problem? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 3:24:27 PM)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html

"Professor Kuran’s research suggests that, at least looking forward, the more correct view is: Islam isn’t the problem and it isn’t the solution, it’s simply a religion — meaning that the break is over, there are no excuses, and it’s time to move forward again. "



JohnWarren -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 3:35:13 PM)

I could point out that because of Ataturk, Turkey is a secular, not Islamic, nation, but more importantly, I think the original author misses the major "mistake."  Along the lines to the decision of the Chinese emperor to withdraw the fleet a turn China inward (The correct translation is really "The Central Kingdom" not the Middle kingdom), Islamic scholars in the 12th Century or so made the decision that all that was worth knowing was in the Quran and effectively put the brakes on further progress and retreated the society into a single book.  This is the true flaw under which the system still labors.

These folks are not really that different from the people who want to drop the US Constitution in favor of the Ten Commandments.

Knowledge and learning come from looking in all directions and examining and accepting or rejecting a multitude of sources.  Bending reality to meet the teachings of a single book or outlook leads to a very bent society.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 3:47:56 PM)

Indeed John. The colonization excuse, is an excuse to not look at some of the issues, and the uneducated in any country will ban together in an "us vs. them" mentality. Maybe with some of the things happening now, some will take a serious look at things in their countries. I fear though, that many will take this as a chance to further agendas that are not in the best interest of the populace.



Aneirin -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 4:37:07 PM)

But in the 'us versus them', you are talking about another interpretation of what your country says it is built on,' In God We Trust' and all that, the same god the 'them' worship, who'se right and whose wrong, maybe both are, or both not, you never can tell. But for Islam to have survived some 1300 years, it has  to have something that enabled it's survival. If Christianity stopped now, would Islam continue to be the next oldest god fearing belief,perhaps with the way that religion is run, it will, as let's face it, Christianity is drying up, Christians lack the force of numbers that can come together in a common aim and fight for what they believe in, which amounts to no more than unprovable illogical hocus pocus. Perhaps religion is the old world and the new is science, as where there is intellect, religion has a hard time.

But of the three, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, maybe that is gods test, create seperate ideals and allow man to work it all out, as in the working it all out, what will you learn ?



JohnWarren -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 7:28:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

l. If Christianity stopped now, would Islam continue to be the next oldest god fearing belief



Judism to 3760 BCE
Confucius died in 479 BCE
Shinto dates to about 550 BCE
Buddism died in 563 BCE
Muhammad died in 632 CE  That's hardly even in the running for an old "god fearing" religion

I'm not even counting some  of the African religions that have been practiced for thousands of years.






tweakabelle -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 7:42:52 PM)

Why single out the Islamic world for this analysis? Similar questions could be asked about say, India or China, where different religions are popular. Shared histories of colonialism and relatively recent freedom from overt Western political control apply too.

And it's odd that the good Professor managed to omit any mention of the relative status of women in the analysis (as reported). A culture that excludes women from the public domain is eliminating half the available talent. This can only be to its own detriment.

To me these omissions and methodological flaws add weight to my suspicion that the rationale for eliminating the effects of colonialism as a potential primary cause of the problem is superficial and self-serving.



eihwaz -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 8:47:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Why single out the Islamic world for this analysis? Similar questions could be asked about say, India or China, where different religions are popular. Shared histories of colonialism and relatively recent freedom from overt Western political control apply too.

It could simply be that the author's expertise is the ME.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
[...] the rationale for eliminating the effects of colonialism as a potential primary cause of the problem is superficial and self-serving.

I believe part of the author's thesis is that Arab society was susceptible to Western imperialism because it was already weak, rather than that Western imperialism weakened Arab society.  (Conversely, a strong Arab society could have resisted Western imperialism.)  Do you suspect that the author is an apologist for Western imperialism rather than exploring alternative approaches to the question and, if so, what are your reasons for suspecting such?



tweakabelle -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/6/2011 11:10:35 PM)

quote:


Do you suspect that the author is an apologist for Western imperialism rather than exploring alternative approaches to the question and, if so, what are your reasons for suspecting such?


Unfortunately, my understanding of the Professor's analysis is derived solely from the NYT article and is therefore very limited. He is described as an "economic historian". So I am sorry but it's really impossible for me to answer your questions with any confidence. The best I can do is share the thinking that caused me to pose the questions I did.

The reason China and India was mentioned was they seem to me to have several significant commonalities with the Middle East. To me, this points towards answers being found (in substantial measure) in commonalities rather than in one internal aspect of Arab culture.

The article states the Prof identified "various secondary Islamic legal practices" as the primary reason for Arab stagnation. At first glance it seems to me to be an onerous task to argue the effects of such practices outweigh the devastating effects of imperialism on a society. It is certainly possible that the Professor makes his case compellingly in his text, but that would require complete reading to assess.

For me, the effects of imperialism and colonialism on the colonised lands are far greater than most common accounts credit. There is also the "Orientalist" effect to consider - the tendency for Western scholarship to see and analyse the East through very biased Western eyes, thereby producing self serving sometimes almost fictitious accounts of the East.

The post-colonial experience is that it can take many generations to overcome the colonial legacy. India and China, for example, both ancient civilisations with complex histories have taken over half a century to really hit their strides after freeing themselves from the colonial yoke. And that's just at the economic level.

The negative legacy of colonialism and imperialism extends into every aspect of culture. Even now, more than half a century after achieving independence, it is generally agreed that it will take several more generations before anything approaching parity in most aspects of life will be reached in both India and China.

The author tends (according to the NYT article) to view these effects benignly. This causes me to approach his thesis a greater degree of scepticism that I otherwise might.



Moonhead -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 4:42:09 AM)

Surely Confuscianism is a philosophy rather than a Religion, John? I don't think he's worshipped as such.
(You're forgetting taoism as well, which also has a very long history)



Aneirin -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 5:04:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

l. If Christianity stopped now, would Islam continue to be the next oldest god fearing belief



Judism to 3760 BCE
Confucius died in 479 BCE
Shinto dates to about 550 BCE
Buddism died in 563 BCE
Muhammad died in 632 CE  That's hardly even in the running for an old "god fearing" religion

I'm not even counting some  of the African religions that have been practiced for thousands of years.






I am, and was referring to the God as the Christians, Jews and Moslems interpret it, the Abrahamic religions, as it seems it is those three that are tasking the world in this present time.

As to other religions what they do to others we hardly hear about, could that be because they are no problem to us, or they don't really threaten anyone ?

But in our world, the developed Western world, we only tend to care about what will be a problem to us, we are Westo-centric in our understanding, perhaps because that is where we live.



eihwaz -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 6:16:33 AM)

Based on the NYT op-ed, Professor Kuran proposes that Arab society was already stagnate long (centuries) before domination by Europe, which commenced with the end of the Ottoman Empire in the early Twentieth Century.  This is not to diminish the damage inflicted by Western exploitation.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There is also the "Orientalist" effect to consider - the tendency for Western scholarship to see and analyse the East through very biased Western eyes, thereby producing self serving sometimes almost fictitious accounts of the East.

FWIW, Professor Kuran is a Western educated Turk.





(trim your quotes - M21)



domiguy -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 6:43:46 AM)

Whatever their problems are they are going to be addressed in the near future. Unless a country is being ruled over by a strict dictator that has some how managed to prohibit the use of computers and the receiving of the interwebz, change it is a coming.

It can't be stopped. Now people have the ability to communicate and to see what life is actually like outside the confines of their own walls.

Whatever Islam is or isn't is irrelevant. Nothing is going to stand in the way of this type of a tide.

In time it will consume everything.



mnottertail -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 6:57:53 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKV4UD0GQeE



Aneirin -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 7:48:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Whatever their problems are they are going to be addressed in the near future. Unless a country is being ruled over by a strict dictator that has some how managed to prohibit the use of computers and the receiving of the interwebz, change it is a coming.

It can't be stopped. Now people have the ability to communicate and to see what life is actually like outside the confines of their own walls.

Whatever Islam is or isn't is irrelevant. Nothing is going to stand in the way of this type of a tide.

In time it will consume everything.


Yes, I agree with that, a big change is coming, and maybe that is what it is order descending or ascending into chaos, from which something different will emerge.

So the religious end of the world, what could it be this judgment day, could it even be where people get the choice whether to carry on with the experiment, or try a different way, could the chaos be the judgment day ?

The cleansing of the hives maybe

Bearing in mind world population is said to be becoming a problem for our future.



JohnWarren -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 8:24:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Surely Confuscianism is a philosophy rather than a Religion, John? I don't think he's worshipped as such.
(You're forgetting taoism as well, which also has a very long history)


K'ung-tzu isn't and never claimed to be a god, but he was very specific about how the gods were to be worshiped.

As far as Taoism, did you really expect me to list EVERY religion's beginning?  I was simply making a point.



truckinslave -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 8:28:21 AM)

I read the pablum. The author said the "unstated feeling" in the West was that "Islam is the problem". The emphasis of the piece was economic, but let me state plainly that it is my thought, belief, and feeling, that, whether the overarch is economic, or political, or an issue of religious tolerance, womens rights, gay rights, or violence:
Yes, the problem is Islam



truckinslave -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 8:32:48 AM)

Sit down, take a deep breath. Maybe get a drink, light a cigarette of something. If you have heart trouble, maybe asthma, have appropriate medication nearby. Ready, now?

I agree completely.



cpK69 -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 8:38:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html

"Professor Kuran’s research suggests that, at least looking forward, the more correct view is: Islam isn’t the problem and it isn’t the solution, it’s simply a religion —


Am I wrong in thinking Islam isn’t “simply a religion” but a group of people who hold certain religious beliefs. Humans choose their actions by their beliefs; how can the situation they are in, not, at least in part, be a result of their beliefs?

quote:

meaning that the break is over, there are no excuses, and it’s time to move forward again. "


I want to ask him; move forward to what? If he is referring to being more like ‘the civilized world’, I feel inclined to point out; literacy is not a cure for ignorance, if it were, perhaps he would not be thinking our type of capitalizing, a more equal distribution of misuse, is better than that of the fore mentioned.

Kim



Moonhead -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 8:43:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Surely Confuscianism is a philosophy rather than a Religion, John? I don't think he's worshipped as such.
(You're forgetting taoism as well, which also has a very long history)


K'ung-tzu isn't and never claimed to be a god, but he was very specific about how the gods were to be worshiped.

As far as Taoism, did you really expect me to list EVERY religion's beginning?  I was simply making a point.



Fair enough.



tweakabelle -> RE: Is Islam the Problem? (3/7/2011 12:25:07 PM)

quote:


“Based on the NYT op-ed, Professor Kuran proposes that Arab society was already stagnate long (centuries) before domination by Europe, which commenced with the end of the Ottoman Empire in the early Twentieth Century. This is not to diminish the damage inflicted by Western exploitation.”



My general point is that similar analysis could be made of almost any region prior to western intervention eg China India Africa Middle East Sth America even. All were world ‘leaders’ at one point or another in the past. My concern is that a general approach of finding fault with the local culture minimises the damaging role of the West, and is used politically to get the West off the hook as it were. Truckinslave’s simplistic contribution above is a perfect example of what I mean.

This is not to say that local cultures are blameless. Arab societies, to my eyes, have many faults – eg. the failure to separate religion and State, the status of women, appalling educational and justice systems, failure to involve citizens in the running of the State, widespread corruption – that will be factors in that analysis. Resources (oil excepted) are not plentiful. Climate and topography are harsh. Many of these factors will apply to one extent or another to other non-Arab regions.

If the goal is producing a society that emulates Western industrial democracies, then there are specific reasons why this developed in the West. There are also legitimate reasons why non-Western societies might and do choose to reject large parts of this development model. Whatever the goal is, it is not a decision to be made in the West by Westerners.

As we agree that the West did ‘damage’ perhaps it might be helpful if you could outline what you understand this damage to be – so that we can identify any disagreements (if indeed, we are disagreeing, as opposed to emphasising different elements of basically similar perspectives).



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