When does life begin?

When does life begin? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:59:36 AM)
Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so?

TheHeretic -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 6:15:30 AM)
Assuming we are talking about this from a human reproductive point of view, let's say life begins when the brain starts working. It seems like as good an arbitrary line as any.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 6:16:56 AM)
Hmm.. good point... i didnt make it clear enough. Edited to fix that. Thanks Rich!

KenDckey -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 6:36:59 AM)
That is like what came first - the chicken or the egg. I believe the religious aspect because science can't explain how anything was created the first time. Just that it exploded. Now how was God created baffles me.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 6:43:52 AM)
And which religion would that be?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:02:26 AM)
You have to define life before you can discuss when it begins.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:04:59 AM)
Then define it, according to your belief.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:08:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so? I guess this should have went into this thread NO in terms of a fetus life is chain, like inheritance passed from one generation to the next. The individual with sentient capacity however does come into existence with the fetus, in that respect life begins at successful fertilization. On the other hand in law life begins at a point where "title" can be claimed by the master which is known as the birth. extinguishing life is a loss of sentience it is a single event the body remains behind

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:10:08 AM)
Yet you make no mention of a soul. How can you avoid....dismiss isnt the right word... the theological view points when addressing such a complex issue?

DomYngBlk -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:11:45 AM)
Unfortunately there is no way a human can know when life begins. It is beyond our comprehension.....it is why it ties us up in knots over that question. There is not now or ever will be a definitive answer

mnottertail -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:14:00 AM)
The sentient definition is fraught with peril. This would allow the wholesale snuffing of a great number of people out of hand. Those of us who don't see the soul in a religious context and consider conciousness or even unconsiousness in no wise equivalent to sentient......... Well, it is very problematical.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:22:18 AM)
metaphysics.... the soul lives on it is how society gathers soul is found in what is known as the abstract or fictional element, that which can be derived and is known in metaphysics which lead to theology a further study of the derivatives. in law you have man woman and what is between them, the obligation or contract or trust take your pick all synon for this purpose the soul is the impartation of the whole body of "truth" to the next generation, the sum of all experience, knowledge and wisdom all of which belong to the metaphysical group studied and analysed using theology among other things.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:24:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail The sentient definition is fraught with peril. This would allow the wholesale snuffing of a great number of people out of hand. Those of us who don't see the soul in a religious context and consider conciousness or even unconsiousness in no wise equivalent to sentient......... Well, it is very problematical. its not a tough distinction, they are either zombies or they are sentient if you want to extend it to things that are not sentient then everything is out of wack. However iron does not know you are about to kill it, so how can you kill anything that is not sentient. Sentience of course being extended to all human life regardless of the condition of the body once born. that is the only real grey area on this basis and if people err on the caution then what does it matter?

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:27:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Unfortunately there is no way a human can know when life begins. It is beyond our comprehension.....it is why it ties us up in knots over that question. There is not now or ever will be a definitive answer on the contrary there are several definitive answers, re-read what I said, I believe I covered all avenues "in general".

StrangerThan -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:42:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so? That's the real question, isn't it? I once told someone in an argument (my brother actually) that when you can pull the thing out, stick a bottle in it's mouth and it sucks, you have life. Until then, you have a parasitic growth of cells that is utterly dependent on its host. After watching a fetus grow from a few weeks into a child, I had to call him up and tell him he was mostly right. You watch it, week by week, it's pretty clear life exists and is no more dependent than folks on life support in a hospital. As to the when, for me the only answer that makes sense is conception. What exists prior is a potential life. It's funny that we can, in science, describe single cell life in fossils or under a microscope, but get tongue tied when it is in someone's stomach. The only reason we do is that the question has huge implications in reproductive rights. If we identify a point where we say life exists, then the choice to terminate becomes a legally sanctioned form of murder. By my own description above, I believe abortion to be the taking of life, regardless of when the procedure occurs. Does that mean I'm anti-abortion? No. It means I'm sick of people offering up sanitized language in order to make folks feel better about what they're doing. If I'm going to create a legal/illegal point, it would be a moving target, one defined by viability. Currently that's right around 21-22 weeks I think. I may be off a week or two. Sue me. Either way, somewhere around there. I think once life can exist outside the womb, there is nothing left to argue about in terms of whether life exists or not. It's there. It's living. It's breathing. It's thinking. Much of the same is true the week before. The difference is viability outside the host. It is a boundary that medical science will continue to push back, which is why I say it's a moving target. Prior to that, I don't see much difference between abortion and choosing to withhold fluids from someone who is terminally ill. Both choices will achieve the end result which is the termination of a life.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 7:50:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan f I'm going to create a legal/illegal point, it would be a moving target, one defined by viability. Currently that's right around 21-22 weeks I think. I may be off a week or two. Sue me. Either way, somewhere around there. I think once life can exist outside the womb, there is nothing left to argue about in terms of whether life exists or not. It's there. It's living. It's breathing. It's thinking. thats where courts overstepped their bounds. making a "legal" determination to give people an arbitrary line by which to justify that which no man has a right to determine for another. Rather then err on the side of caution they took it upon themselves to become like gods didnt they.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 8:57:29 AM)
quote: If I'm going to create a legal/illegal point, it would be a moving target, one defined by viability. Currently that's right around 21-22 weeks I think. I may be off a week or two. Sue me. Either way, somewhere around there. I think once life can exist outside the womb, there is nothing left to argue about in terms of whether life exists or not. It's there. It's living. It's breathing. It's thinking. I would tend to agree with you... and the official viability... that is, the youngest viable pre-term delivery, to date, is 22 weeks, 6 days. The only part I would argue with in the above is the breathing part. That doesnt happen until birth.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 8:59:30 AM)
quote: thats where courts overstepped their bounds. making a "legal" determination to give people an arbitrary line by which to justify that which no man has a right to determine for another. Rather then err on the side of caution they took it upon themselves to become like gods didnt they. Im not exactly sure what you are saying, RO. Is it your contention that each person... in this case woman, because men dont have the ability to get pregnant yet... and I do mean yet... has the right to decide for themselves? Or are you saying that the courts never should have made the determination of when its legal or not?

mnottertail -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 9:00:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail The sentient definition is fraught with peril. This would allow the wholesale snuffing of a great number of people out of hand. Those of us who don't see the soul in a religious context and consider conciousness or even unconsiousness in no wise equivalent to sentient......... Well, it is very problematical. its not a tough distinction, they are either zombies or they are sentient if you want to extend it to things that are not sentient then everything is out of wack. However iron does not know you are about to kill it, so how can you kill anything that is not sentient. Sentience of course being extended to all human life regardless of the condition of the body once born. that is the only real grey area on this basis and if people err on the caution then what does it matter? It would matter in the same way that since no proof of a conspiracy exists, that is the definition used for proof of a conspiracy existing.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 9:04:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan If I'm going to create a legal/illegal point, it would be a moving target, one defined by viability. Legal determinations cannot be based on moving targets. That is precisely why RvW is couched in terms of a bright line. You also dont know the definition of a parasite.

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