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RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 10:52:03 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
SpiritedRadiance, please learn to use sex and gender correctly. Also, even using your response with the correct word it fits. Power to break the POW to accomplish whatever is desired. With a man that is less of an issue.



Actually I disagree in fact i can assure you ive endured more torture in my life, and have a stronger will to live as a woman then you do as a man...

Women have been enduring torture for years.... our bodies are BUILT to handle pain.

In fact Id issue a challenge that any torture you cant endure I can, but that would be a moot point because you seem to think that every rape victim is then broken by that rape...and that rape is a worse torture then anything else and that by being a woman we would break because of said rape...

a few million rape survivors would disagree with you...


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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 10:55:44 PM   
zenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Second, you made the statement that a woman at that height and weight couldnt possibly be fit enough. The Army disagrees.


Incorrect, I made the statement that the average women as per Aylee of 5'4" and 154lbs is best assumed to be obese as women to not produce the proper hormones in the proper amounts to be 5'4" and 154lbs and the majority of it be muscle mass and not fat. I did not say it was impossible. However, as with my earlier posts, such a woman would be quite the outlier.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Third, you also made the comment that a man couldnt possibly be fit at that height and weight... agains, the Army disagrees.


Incorrect, I said a man of 5'4" who was fit at 154lbs would have worked out with the express purpose of gaining muscle mass. This is because such a frame typically has ~120lbs when fit.

Please, read my posts more carefully next time.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 10:57:22 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Congratulations WyldHrt, you appear to be an outlier. You're right that "some" (some being extremely few) women can do these things.

I never said the ability to do so was common, but it does exist. I'm 5'9" with naturally dense muscles- not common, but not that rare, either. The rest had to do with my job. Tossing lumber and loading 90lb concrete bags tends to build muscle even if you don't hit the gym. That said, I think that women are still discouraged from finding out what they can really, physically do if they put the effort in.
quote:

Regardless, good luck getting that 220lb dead weight off the ground and over your shoulder. Better luck dragging it over terrain when you can't.
Did that, too; both in emergency medical/ hazmat training and real life. Adrenaline is a many splendid thing.
quote:

Unfortunately, you all want to argue things that aren't even semantics. No one wants to touch the solution which is to set a standard for combat personnel and whoever meets it, have fun.

You misunderstood my post then. I do not advocate anyone who can't pass a universal standard being put in a combat position, with the possible exception of snipers. My point was that some females can do the job.
quote:

Although, even then you still have the very real situation that CarpeComa pointed out.
There was a time when women working in any dangerous job were viewed with horror by the average American. Things change.


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(in reply to zenny)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 10:58:42 PM   
zenny


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Joined: 2/13/2008
Status: offline 		Please, stop putting words in my mouth. My post was to remark that rape was a much more likely tool in a torturers toolbox in regards to a woman as opposed to a man. Again, I'm not going to entertain your other thoughts.

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 11:00:26 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
This is because such a frame typically has ~120lbs when fit.



Acutally the typical healthy frame at this height is 130 to 150 pounds....

PLEASE get your facts right...


_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 11:02:11 PM   
zenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Congratulations WyldHrt, you appear to be an outlier. You're right that "some" (some being extremely few) women can do these things.

I never said the ability to do so was common, but it does exist. I'm 5'9" with naturally dense muscles- not common, but not that rare, either. The rest had to do with my job. Tossing lumber and loading 90lb concrete bags tends to build muscle even if you don't hit the gym. That said, I think that women are still discouraged from finding out what they can really, physically do if they put the effort in.
quote:

Regardless, good luck getting that 220lb dead weight off the ground and over your shoulder. Better luck dragging it over terrain when you can't.
Did that, too; both in emergency medical/ hazmat training and real life. Adrenaline is a many splendid thing.
quote:

Unfortunately, you all want to argue things that aren't even semantics. No one wants to touch the solution which is to set a standard for combat personnel and whoever meets it, have fun.

You misunderstood my post then. I do not advocate anyone who can't pass a universal standard being put in a combat position, with the possible exception of snipers. My point was that some females can do the job.
quote:

Although, even then you still have the very real situation that CarpeComa pointed out.
There was a time when women working in any dangerous job were viewed with horror by the average American. Things change.



Touche' and I completely agree with you. (edit: well, mostly. when I say outlier I mean ~2 std. dev. above norm. [top ~2.3%])

I recall reading somewhere that it typically takes two or three generations for societal viewpoints to change


SpiritedRadiance, I said fit, not healthy. There is a difference.

< Message edited by zenny -- 3/10/2011 11:16:48 PM >

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 11:03:43 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

Please, stop putting words in my mouth. My post was to remark that rape was a much more likely tool in a torturers toolbox in regards to a woman as opposed to a man. Again, I'm not going to entertain your other thoughts.


Rape is likely in any torturers tool box wither the captive is male or female..... Rape is something thats extremely powerful and takes a strong person to overcome...

WILL rape be reported more in females then in males in regards to a POW situation. Yes it will

Why is that? Because like it is now its more socially acceptable for a woman to admit to being raped then it is for a male to be raped.... because of the power aspect.

there are about 5 thousand unreported rapes where the male is a victim yearly....

Just because the news doesnt report men in combat being raped doesnt mean it doesnt happen


_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to zenny)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/10/2011 11:29:24 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Touche' and I completely agree with you.

Thank you. I will avoid doing that completely female 'I adore winning' thingy at this juncture, and there will be no giggling. I won't spike a ball in the end zone, either
quote:

I recall reading somewhere that it typically takes two or three generations for societal viewpoints to change

Change does take time. I'm old enough to remember the shock and horror of females becoming police officers, mine workers, paramedics, and entering all manner of other 'men's work' jobs. These days, most folks don't really bat an eye at a female police officer, mine worker, or paramedic. That took time, and so will this. 

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to zenny)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 4:22:13 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

Let me know when women produce enough testosterone to attain 154lbs at 5'4"


If they hit 154 lbs, they would be overweight and not allowed in. The max weight for a 5'4 female according to this chart is 145 lbs.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/l/blweightfemale.htm




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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 9:16:52 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

My point still stands, even with the averages. Largely because the average woman (according to your numbers) is obese and unfit. Although, were she not, she would fall much closer to the 120lb mark.


Then the average man is also since their body mass index is nearly identical. Try and stop your sexism from clouding your thinking.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to zenny)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 9:27:30 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

Power to break the POW to accomplish whatever is desired. With a man that is less of an issue.



Bullshit. Everybody breaks under torture. Maybe you shoud study the Spanish Inquisition and the European witch trials. You might want to look up the writings of this guy named von Spee.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to zenny)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 10:26:15 AM   
zenny


Posts: 275
Joined: 2/13/2008
Status: offline 		I don't see why when it appears we were mostly saying the same thing 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
Power to break the POW to accomplish whatever is desired. With a man that is less of an issue.

Bullshit. Everybody breaks under torture. Maybe you shoud study the Spanish Inquisition and the European witch trials. You might want to look up the writings of this guy named von Spee.


I'll tell you what I told SpiritedRadiance and what you should have read before posting this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
Please, stop putting words in my mouth. My post was to remark that rape was a much more likely tool in a torturers toolbox in regards to a woman as opposed to a man.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
My point still stands, even with the averages. Largely because the average woman (according to your numbers) is obese and unfit. Although, were she not, she would fall much closer to the 120lb mark.

Then the average man is also since their body mass index is nearly identical. Try and stop your sexism from clouding your thinking.


I have already addressed this. Read more carefully.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
Hell, that's not even a realistic weight for a fit man that height barring a great deal of working out with the express purpose of gaining muscle mass. Can we be realistic here or is cognitive dissonance the flavor of the thread?


And that is in regards to a fit man of that height. It goes without saying the implications for someone unfit. Again, stopping putting words in my mouth.

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 2:40:33 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Because of body structure, the average woman is also a better shot.


Well, I started shooting competitively in 1966. Rifles, later handguns. Roomful of trophies and such. At one point I was the most active NRA Certified Instructor in WV (I think).
I never heard that a womans body structure made her a better shot.
The things one learns here.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 3/11/2011 2:41:06 PM >

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 3:32:41 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

They can't. They don't.
I guess Israeli women are just different eh Trucky

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 3:36:08 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

My post was to remark that rape was a much more likely tool in a torturers toolbox in regards to a woman as opposed to a man.
And I suggest that the average woman would handle that rape a lot better than the average man would handle having a baton shoved up his ass...a very common torture technique already in use.


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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 5:07:24 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Because of body structure, the average woman is also a better shot.


Well, I started shooting competitively in 1966. Rifles, later handguns. Roomful of trophies and such. At one point I was the most active NRA Certified Instructor in WV (I think).
I never heard that a womans body structure made her a better shot.
The things one learns here.


I think that I read it in an article or book by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

But I do not remember the title.

ETA:

It was something to do with stances and center of gravity, I think. Also in learning to shoot they do a better job because of something to do with cultural influences. It has been about a decade since I read this.

< Message edited by Aylee -- 3/11/2011 5:10:21 PM >

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 6:18:29 PM   
CarpeComa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Its going to be the same effect as when a tragic rape story is on the news.... and whos to say the same things in their treatment dont happen to the men they just dont reveal it? You assume that because a woman its going to be worse... that isnt always the case, some countries actually treat women pows better then male....due to their customs and religion...

So when it leaks that the woman was given a black Eye but the man was tortured within an inch of their life... i doubt it will be an issue...

the point is the women who sign up for the military understand the risks... they understand the possibilities and they are intelligent enough to weigh the risk and the rewards for doing it over not doing it...

WE ARENT helpless fragile little things that are easily broken... weve been going through torture men cant imagine (child birth) for Thousands of years prior to modern medicine... our pain tolerance is Higher then males...



I said nothing about this being because the soldier 'couldn't take it' because she was a woman or didn't understand the risks.

Sure, the soldiers may understand the risk, but the populous isn't the one that signed up. What' the result of a tragic rape story? Massive popular support behind the woman. Now how is that going to translate to a POW situation where rescue is not eminent? Not well at all. Instead, it is going to become frustration and outrage at the military for not "doing something".

< Message edited by CarpeComa -- 3/11/2011 6:20:38 PM >

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/11/2011 6:38:09 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		If we could just get *our govt* to stop interfereing in foreign countrie's problems this just "might" not be an issue.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/12/2011 12:57:36 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Separate physical standards there too.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Panel wants women in combat arms - 3/12/2011 12:59:33 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Also in learning to shoot they do a better job because of something to do with cultural influences. It h


Women come in with an open mind, and listen to the instructor.
Guys come in thinking they know it all and have something to prove.



_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 60
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