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Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 8:27:56 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I agree completely with Mr. Krugman’s economic analysis of what ails the United States. And I also agree with his views about how the White House is responding to the GOP approach - like wimps. I don’t think I agree with his opinion Republicans are not into rationality although they do appear to be irrational and exasperating to the point where you think they are bordering on insanity.
 
I think Republicans are into making money. The policies required to fix the budget deficit will obstruct Republicans looting taxpayer money. That is the real reason Republicans are not co-operating to reduce the deficit. Republicans are very rational because wanting to make money or getting rich is normal. It’s just that most people are more ethical in that they don’t want to get rich on the taxpayers dime or by making government inefficient, ineffective and with disregard for taxpayers hard earned money.
 
  
Dumbing Deficits Down

Think of it this way: Congress could, with a stroke of a pen, cut Social Security benefits in half. But it couldn’t do the same with health spending: Medicare can’t suddenly start paying to replace only half a heart valve or mandate that bypass operations stop halfway through.  Limiting health costs, therefore, requires a smarter approach. We need to work harder on prevention, which can be much cheaper than a cure. We need to find innovative ways of managing health care. And, above all, we need to know what works and what doesn’t so that Medicare and Medicaid can say no to expensive procedures with little or no medical benefit. “So-called comparative effectiveness research” is central to any rational attempt to deal with America’s fiscal problems.

But today’s Republicans just aren’t into rationality. They claim to care deeply about deficits — but they’ve spent the past two years putting cynical, demagogic attacks on any attempt to actually deal with long-run deficits at the heart of their campaign strategy.The president and his aides know that the G.O.P. approach to the budget is wrongheaded and destructive. But they’ve stopped making the case for an alternative approach; instead, they’ve positioned themselves as know-nothings lite, accepting the notion that spending must be slashed immediately — just not as much as Republicans want. 

And this dumbing down bodes ill for the nation’s future. Health care is only one of the large and difficult problems America needs to deal with, ranging from infrastructure to climate change, all of which demand that we engage in a lot of hard thinking. Yet what we have instead is a political culture in which one side sneers at knowledge and exalts ignorance, while the other side hunkers down and pretends to halfway agree.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/opinion/11krugman.html?_r=1
 




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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 9:22:33 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You have an electorate that, at least since Reagan, wants it dumb.

So it gets dumber. Why? Ironically, we can actually afford it.

When that changes, dumb won't work anymore.

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 9:31:13 PM   
jack8007


Posts: 392
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quote:

Republicans are very rational because wanting to make money or getting rich is normal. It’s just that most people are more ethical


It's not a matter of ethics.   The Republican constituencies are - for different reasons - too shortsighted to realize that money doesn't do a lot of good without a civilization to manufacture ammo at least, and they generally don't think beyond the quarterly reports.   The Republican accountants are like standing on the deck of the Titanic insisting that they have the biggest profits.

Basically, only 2 GOP constituencies matter - the establishment Republicans like Bush and Boehner, who are tied to Wall Street money.  Then you have the radical right / Teabagger / blue collar Republicans, whose world is coming down around their ears, and they're getting hard for the establishment GOP to control, and they're slaves of their world-view.   These include the birthers, and all the ones who yammer about health care being socialism.

Granted, individuals can move in & out of these groups, but functionally, that's what's happening - the characteristic American energy can be expressed in a rush to the bottom line that isn't necessarily effective - eg., starting wars without a clear plan to end them.   Sun Tzu would tell them conserving force might be smart, but the American way is not conservative in the sense of being cautious - it is "conservative" in the same way that bulls in a china shop are.        



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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 9:52:46 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
 
I think Republicans are into making money.


I think we all are.  But I'm not sure what you mean by "making money".  Do you mean minting it, or expanding credit, or are you referring to private sector activity?  Or something else? 
quote:



The policies required to fix the budget deficit will obstruct Republicans looting taxpayer money.


I'm not sure what you mean by looting taxpayer money.  Once money is paid in taxes, it becomes government money and not taxpayer money.  Are you implying that increasing taxes or cutting spending (the only two ways to fix the deficit aside from runaway inflation) will reduce the amount of government funds available for the GOP to "loot"?  And why do only the GOP loot this money and not the Dems? 
quote:



That is the real reason Republicans are not co-operating to reduce the deficit. Republicans are very rational because wanting to make money or getting rich is normal. It’s just that most people are more ethical in that they don’t want to get rich on the taxpayers dime or by making government inefficient, ineffective and with disregard for taxpayers hard earned money.
 


You've lost me here.  You seem to be making an argument that Republicans spend government money on themselves and Dems don't.  You also seem to be making the point that Republicans somehow profit when government is inefficient.  IMO, the Dems don't address government inefficiency, while the GOP occasionally bewails it bit does nothing about it.

The reason that the GOP has not wholeheartedly attacked the debt is that cutting programs is no fun, and those that had previously benefited from the program will hate your guts and try to vote you out.  There's also the Laffer curve, which predicts that tax cuts will magically improve the economy and will provide an endless stream of revenue.  Face it - if you could always increase tax revenue without burdening the taxpayers, there'd be no need to cut spending or up taxes.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 10:39:27 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		It took 30 years but 'W' was the coup de grâce for the repubs to cut $trillions in taxes, starting two $trillion wars, creating a whole new 1/2 $trillion drug benefit and all 'off books' have finally...'starved-the-beast.'

Now the whole debate is over cutting something else...the ultimate goal. The war, subsidies, financial bailouts and out right corporate welfare if you have noticed...are off the table.

What was one major 'reform' of the 'great budget commission ?' LOWER corporate taxes yet again from the illusory 35% to the erqually illusory 25%...brilliant. That at least won't lower govt. revenue because of course currently there is next to no corporate tax revenue. (9-10 cents of every dollar taken in by the fed. govt.)

The above will not ever change because presidents...want to stay alive.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/12/2011 10:46:03 PM >

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 11:03:15 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		LOL. Dumb is this: "But it couldn’t do the same with health spending:Medicare can’t suddenly start paying to replace only half a heart valve or mandate that bypass operations stop halfway through."

I can tell you in 2 words how to cut Medicare spending in half, without changing the reimbursements for procedures one iota. He gets further out in every article he writes.

_____________________________

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/12/2011 11:57:06 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


I'm not sure what you mean by looting taxpayer money.  Once money is paid in taxes, it becomes government money and not taxpayer money. 


There have been two wars and a tsunami of a bail out in recent history. Thank goodness it was just government money, no obligation to taxpayers. No discussion in congress then or at present as to whether to raise or maintain the tax cut to the wealthy or rather retain the consequent burden to the remainder of society, etc.

Ergo, no looting of taxpayer money. Thank goodness all these shutdowns of local schools everywhere. We've got to have a buffer as to account for the important things, so as to avoid any looting of taxpayer money. It works.

Doesn't it?

The media avoids actual consequences like the plague, so for all we know, everything works just fine, except for the other political party, etc., ....


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Face it - if you could always increase tax revenue without burdening the taxpayers, there'd be no need to cut spending or up taxes.



We could not increase tax revenue forever, but getting full accounting and revenue of what the top .01 percent earners otherwise and in fact successfully avoid in taxes would certainly help. If people had half a clue as to the amount involved ... 

As for the Laffer curve ...


Why are people so bent about this?

It's just a stupid curve, one amoungst an abundance of economic curves based on empirical data, that says that tax cuts stimulate the economy, UP TO A CERTAIN POINT, said point beyond which further tax cuts are a detriment to the economy. Unless people (and quite obviously, congresspeople and the idiots that keep electing them) in fact do not understand the basic geometry of a CURVE, in this instance that the marginal product of anything stops at zero. After that, it's all down hill, and that occurred some 20-25 years ago.













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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 12:28:41 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		You’re being silly. Of course I don’t mean minting it.  I mean owning a business, employment etc.  Here are 10 ways,
http://ca.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/top-10-ways-to-make-more-money.html

Looting = Halliburton and Wall Street - These guys are Republicans not Dems
 
We need to do what Krugman says to fix the deficit.  You can’t balance the budget only cutting spending.  60% of the deficit will be eliminated simply by ending the Bush tax cuts.  And Gates said cut defence spending so why don't they?
 

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 12:58:00 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		You guys don’t give a sh*t about the deficit or social security as long as you make money.

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 1:08:10 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		How?  I'm interested to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I can tell you in 2 words how to cut Medicare spending in half, without changing the reimbursements for procedures one iota. He gets further out in every article he writes.

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 8:11:03 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

You’re being silly. Of course I don’t mean minting it.  I mean owning a business, employment etc.  Here are 10 ways,
http://ca.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/top-10-ways-to-make-more-money.html

Looting = Halliburton and Wall Street - These guys are Republicans not Dems
 
We need to do what Krugman says to fix the deficit.  You can’t balance the budget only cutting spending.  60% of the deficit will be eliminated simply by ending the Bush tax cuts.  And Gates said cut defence spending so why don't they?
 

1. I was not being silly in the least.  Your post was vague and incoherent and I was taking my best shot.  What you call "making money" is more usually described as things like "expanding the economy".  What you described was NOT making money, but producing more goods and services within the economy that have tangible value.  Economic activity that adds value.

2. Glad to hear that the TARP was conceived of and approved of by the GOP and that the Dems voted against it, every single one.  Brain, the history is that the Bush administration created that abomination and sold it to Congress and that there was bipartisan support for it.  And that the Obama administration continued the policy.  I have no idea why you think that only the GOP is for it.  As a matter of fact, the most virulent opponents of it are the Tea Party, which are in the GOP, albeit uneasily.

3. You can't focus on the deficit alone.  It would be trivial to zero out the deficit by deferring all bills till next year.  The debt is the accumulation of the annual deficits, and is the real enemy.  (In calculus terms, it's the integral of the deficits.)   

Your statement that the deficit cannot be eliminated by cutting spending alone is ridiculous - obviously, if we continued to tax at the current rate and cut government spending to zero, we'd have a massive surplus.  It's completely unfeasible, but if your statement about what is possible and what isn't is supposed to include feasibility, then you misrpresented the situation.  And frankly, there is NO workable solution to the mess that is not going to be horribly painful, so that you could say that no solution is truly feasible.

Edited to add:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

You guys don’t give a sh*t about the deficit or social security as long as you make money.


Brain, do me a favor and try to use words more precisely.  You are using the term "making money" in several different ways, all at once.

1. Economic activity is a GOOD thing.  Understand that.  It provides goods and services, it pays people's salaries, it makes stockholders happy. And, yes, it does pay taxes as well.
2. You are using the term "making money" to include both economic activity, and also money which is retained after taxes.  You have a bias that rich people should pay more taxes.  Thus, you are blending a good thing (economic activity) with something that is bad in your eyes (rich people retaining money that has been in your opinion not sufficiently taxed). 
3. Taxes are nothing more than a device for converting individual money to government money, and the government's function (economically) is nothing more than allocation of resources.  You obviously feel that money used on social programs is a good thing.  You are correct in that we overspent.  The problem with hiking taxes is severalfold.  One, the rich are adept at exploiting loopholes.  Two, there is the standard conservative argument, which is that the prospect of big earnings is what drives formation and growth of companies - if it wasn't for the disproportionate rewards, everyone would want a desk job and no companies would be formed.  (I'm not buying into it 100%, but I can say that I've run two unsuccessful businesses and gave them up for "normal" jobs once I found the rewards weren't there.)  Three, you never solve someone's drinking problem by giving them more booze.  The government cannot be trusted with more money to solve their current problem until they show that they're capable of handling it properly and won't just continue to outspend.


< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 3/13/2011 8:25:23 AM >

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 10:56:06 AM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL Infographic: Tax Breaks vs. Budget Cuts, Center for American Progress, 22 February 2011
The chart below compares the 10 safety-net programs slated for deep cuts with the cost of the tax breaks that should also be considered for reduction or elimination to bring the budget into balance. The column on the left is a list of safety-net programs that have already been targets of the House leadership’s budget ax. The column on the right is the cost to specified tax breaks





ETA: removed space between text and image; added signature quotation
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick


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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 11:05:35 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

How?  I'm interested to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I can tell you in 2 words how to cut Medicare spending in half, without changing the reimbursements for procedures one iota. He gets further out in every article he writes.



Raise copays.

_____________________________

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and harken
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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 1:06:42 PM   
Fellow


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It seems to me Krugman does nor behave as a serious scientist dealing with reality. He is sitting on sidelines and making random political comments on stupid Democrat contra Republican platform.  What is the purpose or benefit; just filling space in NYT?

[Krugman, P. (2010). “THE THEORY OF INTERSTELLAR TRADE.” Economic Inquiry
48(4): 1119-1123.]


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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 1:32:32 PM   
Edwynn


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Thank you DarkSteven, for teaching all of us here.

You've done far more for this thread than I could ever hoped to have done, my own nit picking as merely a side show in comparison.


Listen and heed, folks.



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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 1:32:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow


It seems to me Krugman does nor behave as a serious scientist dealing with reality. He is sitting on sidelines and making random political comments on stupid Democrat contra Republican platform.  What is the purpose or benefit; just filling space in NYT?

[Krugman, P. (2010). “THE THEORY OF INTERSTELLAR TRADE.” Economic Inquiry
48(4): 1119-1123.]




I wish that it was the purpose and result. Unfortunately his affiliation with Princeton, the Times and the NP give him a platform that can and does influence liberal policy makers. I don't believe for a minute that he's stupid enough to actually believe what he writes, but if he can advance his socialist agenda using hyperbole and disingenuity, his end justifies his means in his mind.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 3/13/2011 1:33:21 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 2:03:02 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I don’t want to over analyze this so I’m going to focus only on a couple of things. First, I agree with virtually everything Krugman said about how to fix the economy except I don’t agree with Krugman when he said Republicans are behaving irrationally.  If Krugman thinks Republicans want to reduce the deficit then they are behaving irrationally but I think Republicans don’t care about the deficit. Republicans care about making themselves wealthy - that’s what I meant when I said before making money . So Republicans are not cooperating not because their irrational as Krugman said, but because they want to get rich and don’t care about the deficit or people’s Social Security.
 
Finally, to fix the deficit and the economy I would do exactly what Krugman said in the article needs to be done. I agree with everything Krugman said so if you have a problem with what I said then just read what Krugman said and know I agree with him about everything except what he says Republicans are behaving irrationally.

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 2:17:28 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		How much?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

How?  I'm interested to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I can tell you in 2 words how to cut Medicare spending in half, without changing the reimbursements for procedures one iota. He gets further out in every article he writes.



Raise copays.

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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 2:56:39 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Enough so that we can cut Medicare spending in half.

If we assume (incorrectly) that Medicare spending is directly proportional to Medicare taxation, then simply negotiate a deal with the HMOs so that the copays rise enough that the HMOs get half of what they did previously.  (Because some of the infrastructure costs will not go away when provided benefits are slashed, spending will NOT be directly proportional to taxations.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

How much?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

How?  I'm interested to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I can tell you in 2 words how to cut Medicare spending in half, without changing the reimbursements for procedures one iota. He gets further out in every article he writes.



Raise copays.



_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Brain)
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RE: Dumbing Deficits Down - 3/13/2011 3:01:58 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Enough so that we can cut Medicare spending in half.

If we assume (incorrectly) that Medicare spending is directly proportional to Medicare taxation, then simply negotiate a deal with the HMOs so that the copays rise enough that the HMOs get half of what they did previously.  (Because some of the infrastructure costs will not go away when provided benefits are slashed, spending will NOT be directly proportional to taxations.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

How much?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

How?  I'm interested to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I can tell you in 2 words how to cut Medicare spending in half, without changing the reimbursements for procedures one iota. He gets further out in every article he writes.



Raise copays.





My point wasnt the practicality of it, but to point out how asinine his "half a heart valve surgery" is (or whatever that ridiculous statement was. I wont waste the poor pixels needed to go back to it)

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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