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RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 5:30:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail...

Ahhh... the infamous Trolley Problem.

K.



Yes, the most important thing learned from this and other moral dilemmas is that philosophy is the pursuit of answers that don't exist to questions nobody really gives a fuck about in the first place.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 7:09:45 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

1. Remove key from ignition.
2. Apply emergency brake.
3. Lay on horn as a warning.
4. Pray or curse, as per inclination.



Actually, it's not a good idea to shut the car off, because you lose the power steering, or the wheel locks up altogether and you lose control over where the car is headed. Cursing is good, though :)

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 7:26:56 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		And why can't the driver honk the horn and kill no one?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail.

Is the car driver justified in swerving onto the pavement and killing one person walking down the path, in order to avoid killing 5 people walking across the road?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 7:31:16 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Why can't somebody honked the horn?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

you can turn off the engine, even try to slam the transmission in park, hope your parking brake has a little cow hoof left and the cable isn't rusted to the guides (very ford that) and try to hit the lone republican.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 7:35:27 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Good answer. At least you gave them a chance to get out of the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

1. Remove key from ignition.
2. Apply emergency brake.
3. Lay on horn as a warning.
4. Pray or curse, as per inclination.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 7:40:11 PM   
outhere69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
What do you think the emergency brake is for?


To keep a parked car from rolling. For stopping a moving vehicle they arent much better than sticking your foot out the door and dragging it.

Actually, they can be quite effective.  One night I approached a 4-way stop, and my brake pedal went straight to the floor.  My car came to a chattering, screeching halt as I locked the rear wheels with the hand brake (just about pulled it out by its roots!).  You shoulda seen the expression on the face of the bicyclist who was running the stop sign.  Missed him by 2 feet.

I used the hand brake and downshifting to get home (3 blocks) and get to the service station for a master cylinder replacement (4 miles).

All this excitement was on a '63 Mercury Comet station wagon, with 3 on the tree, and was an effective smoke generator.

< Message edited by outhere69 -- 3/14/2011 7:42:49 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 7:42:57 PM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail.

Is the car driver justified in swerving onto the pavement and killing one person walking down the path, in order to avoid killing 5 people walking across the road?


Take the foot off the gas and use the emergency ( parking brake in the UK, emergency brake in Germany), brake, non hydraulic for a very good reason.

Cars have no place on the sidewalk, whatever happens the car must stay on the road, the pedestrians on the road can stop or run for it, but what was the car doing going at such a speed that such drastic action is called for when the way ahead is not clear.

Remember, in the UK, green does not mean go, it means one may go, only if the road ahead is clear.


emergency brake in germany I guess what you are talking about is named the hand break...unless that got changed in the last 7 years

and I stay out of that topic due to an unpleasent accident at home this weekend where that actually happened, though 4 people got killed and 8 were injured, where the driver had drugs in his blood....and lost control....

good night folks

_____________________________

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

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(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 8:40:51 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail.

Is the car driver justified in swerving onto the pavement and killing one person walking down the path, in order to avoid killing 5 people walking across the road?



Do I have a horn in your nifty little hypothetical, North? I've had the brakes go out in something a lot bigger and heavier than a car, going down a hill, into traffic backed up for a light. Somebody in front of me knew that sound had relevance in their life, and made me a hole to work with. There weren't any pedestrians in the equation.

Now the truck I was operating that morning had a GVWR of 30,000 lbs. Based on how she handled, climbing the up side of that hill, I was running right there, if not a bit over. If I had hit the stack of cars in front of me, I cannot say for sure that anyone would have died, but crippling injuries would have been on the triage chart.

If there had been a pedestrian, AND the dumbass had no clue that the horn might mean he needed to look the fuck around, I think I would have had to stay in the traffic lanes. There is a conscious assumption of risk when you get behind the wheel (unless you are a mindless twat). In that sense, I think the pedestrian, on a sidewalk is more of an innocent.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 9:03:42 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail...

Ahhh... the infamous Trolley Problem.

K.



Yes, the most important thing learned from this and other moral dilemmas is that philosophy is the pursuit of answers that don't exist to questions nobody really gives a fuck about in the first place.


Which then raises the question of why you are posting on a topic you don't give a fuck about?





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/14/2011 9:09:09 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 9:13:41 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Do I have a horn in your nifty little hypothetical, North? I've had the brakes go out in something a lot bigger and heavier than a car, going down a hill, into traffic backed up for a light. Somebody in front of me knew that sound had relevance in their life, and made me a hole to work with. There weren't any pedestrians in the equation.


Thank god for a driver with situational awareness and a good head in an emergency. What a rarity.



quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If there had been a pedestrian, AND the dumbass had no clue that the horn might mean he needed to look the fuck around, I think I would have had to stay in the traffic lanes. There is a conscious assumption of risk when you get behind the wheel (unless you are a mindless twat). In that sense, I think the pedestrian, on a sidewalk is more of an innocent.


Good reasoning. I'd also have to add that a driver in a vehicle has a lot more protection around them, and is more likely to survive getting trucked than a pedestrian with no armor. Probably the best choice all around, assuming the driver has the presence of mind to think it through as you did.


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In the forest of the night
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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/14/2011 9:47:58 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Isn't this the same as the " Trolley problem" in human psychology?

If I remember what I saw on PBS people were given a problem to solve. They had control of a track switch on a trolley line. A serial killer , or something like this, had tied 5 people to the trolley tracks. They could flip the switch and direct the trolley to another track and save the five. The only problem however was one person was tied on that track and would be killed.

The majority of those tested saw no choice but to flip the switch.

Then they were given a second problem... They were on a bridge over the trolley track and the same 5 people were tied to the track. They were told a heavy object dropped on the track would stop the trolley and save the lives. There was a very fat heavy man leaning over the rail over the tracks… The question was should they push him over stopping the train…killing him but saving 5 lives.

The majority refused.

Interesting that their actions would produce the same result but show very different results.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/14/2011 9:50:51 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 12:51:03 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail...

Ahhh... the infamous Trolley Problem.

K.



Yes, the most important thing learned from this and other moral dilemmas is that philosophy is the pursuit of answers that don't exist to questions nobody really gives a fuck about in the first place.


Which then raises the question of why you are posting on a topic you don't give a fuck about?






To bait fools like you?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 12:58:39 AM   
Selectivelight


Posts: 191
Joined: 9/30/2010
Status: offline 		I say grab the E-brake and turn the car sideways. Try to get all six.

... No but seriously, keep your car on the road. The guy on the sidewalk probably isn't expecting a car to come. The others have better odds of paying attention and just getting out of the way.

Edit: And remember kids, panic is the enemy. Use the tools you have and try to make the best of a bad situation. Emergency brake, horn, and steering wheel are your friends.


< Message edited by Selectivelight -- 3/15/2011 1:00:36 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 1:00:57 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Selectivelight

I say grab the E-brake and turn the car sideways. Try to get all six.

... No but seriously, keep your car on the road. The guy on the sidewalk probably isn't expecting a car to come. The others have better odds of paying attention and just getting out of the way.



If it wasnt clear in the OP, that can't happen. The choice is all 5 or the 1 and none of them can save themselves after your choice. It is supposed to present a dichotomy between the utility of saving the most lives possbile vs the ethics of you as an outsider choosing who lives and who dies.

As I said...a question that no one gives a damn about, and has no meaningful answer.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 3/15/2011 1:03:34 AM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Selectivelight)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 5:01:53 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A car driver's brakes fail.

Is the car driver justified in swerving onto the pavement and killing one person walking down the path, in order to avoid killing 5 people walking across the road?


Take the foot off the gas and use the emergency ( parking brake in the UK, emergency brake in Germany), brake, non hydraulic for a very good reason.

Cars have no place on the sidewalk, whatever happens the car must stay on the road, the pedestrians on the road can stop or run for it, but what was the car doing going at such a speed that such drastic action is called for when the way ahead is not clear.

Remember, in the UK, green does not mean go, it means one may go, only if the road ahead is clear.


emergency brake in germany I guess what you are talking about is named the hand break...unless that got changed in the last 7 years

and I stay out of that topic due to an unpleasent accident at home this weekend where that actually happened, though 4 people got killed and 8 were injured, where the driver had drugs in his blood....and lost control....

good night folks



Ok whatever it s now in Germany, but my old VW a german built vehicle with may I add non servo assisted brakes, the 'hand' brake was called an emergency brake. actually labeled that and referred to as in the documentation, but because of the design of that vehicle if the hydraulics failed on one side, the other side had the power to stop the vehicle, the braking circuits operating on diagonally opposed wheels, it also had an early form of anti dive braking, where the situation where many modern cars, the majority of the braking power is on the front wheels when unloaded. My old VW loaded or unloaded, the braking was equal all around and braking involved launching one's foot on the brake pedal and pushing for the life of it to stop what was a heavy vehicle. The emergency brake being named an emergency brake gave me the impetus to make sure it was an emergency brake, that thing was hot !

But in the dilemma given, what happened to traveling at such a speed one can safely stop in, for sure, people do drive too fast, faster than they need to, perhaps because modern cars with all their refines fail to make the driver aware of the conditions and the speed they are traveling at, in a few words, modern cars make it too easy to travel at an unsafe speed, the refines reduce driver awareness.

In the example, stay on the road and hit the warning horn whilst trying to slow the vehicle. People on roads, well, people walking on roads traveled by killing machines should have their awareness about them, and be aware of vehicles near to them, so a vehicle out of control, it is down to the pedestrians to also act, not stand there like a light dazed rabbit in a car's headlights expecting the vehicle to stop for them.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 6:56:49 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		First... I honk the horn while slamming the car into neutral (if it's a nice day and I have the window down I also shout, really loud, GET THE FUCK OUTTA THE WAY!!!!!).

Second... I do a quick assesment of my potential victims (I drove cab for seven years so I am quite skilled in this ). I am already inclined to save five in exchange for one (what was it that Mr. Spock said? The good of the many outweigh the good of the one?) but if the five are all geriatrics and the one is a child... well... you folks have all lived long and fruitful lives, I'm going to give the kid a chance to do the same. If it's a mixed bunch... I can't really say... I'll just have to make my judgments based upon who I consider to be the more worthy of continued life. Yeah, I know how that sounds and it goes against my most basic philosophies... but that's why we call such situaltions moral dilemmas. Sometimes you are in a situation where you can only choose the lesser of two evils, and to make no choice is the worst choice of all.

Lastly... as my carnage inducing vehicle comes to a stop I fling open the driver's side door and then scoot over to the passanger seat so when the police arrive I can say: "It was Monty! The corwardly son of a bitch bailed on me! It was Monty I tell you! It was Monty all along!"

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 12:13:45 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

What if the person on the pavement is you? You'd give your life to save 5 others?
Fuck no!



Ethical then? Expectations of certain principles applied to you......while unable to afford those principles yourself?

Principles applied universally or something else?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 12:23:17 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
A car driver's brakes fail.

Is the car driver justified in swerving onto the pavement and killing one person walking down the path, in order to avoid killing 5 people walking across the road?


i think the driver is justified, but the thought of it just chills me.

On a happier note: (sort of)
A while ago there was a private plane that crashed near a local school during recess. The two pilots died rather than crashing it into the playground.

pam


Interesting then.....someone is justified in choosing to take a life (given certain circumstances)....

Maybe Ron has it about right.....no justification whatsover...although there is some sort of reasoning....or is there?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 3:26:53 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Yes, the most important thing learned from this and other moral dilemmas is that philosophy is the pursuit of answers that don't exist to questions nobody really gives a fuck about in the first place.


Which then raises the question of why you are posting on a topic you don't give a fuck about?



To bait fools like you?


Yeah, I always thought that was your problem.

Just a little boy at heart who likes to stir things up.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Dilemma for the board.... - 3/15/2011 3:36:22 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Second... I do a quick assesment of my potential victims (I drove cab for seven years so I am quite skilled in this ). I am already inclined to save five in exchange for one (what was it that Mr. Spock said? The good of the many outweigh the good of the one?) but if the five are all geriatrics and the one is a child... well... you folks have all lived long and fruitful lives, I'm going to give the kid a chance to do the same.


Would you come down to Florida?

We have more more geriatrics than we know what to do with, and I'm sick of waiting in line behind them at the CVS while they try to figure out how to swipe their credit card.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 60
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