RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again?

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DarkSteven -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 8:36:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven WTF? 1. "Attaching", as you put it, is a chemical reaction, Not only is it not a given that it will react from its original state, but it will become neither less or more radioactive as it does so. is there a more proper term? I can float an iron needle on water right.... would stick to dust be better? carried by dust? Nope. A needle can float on water due to the surface tension. break the surface of the water anbd the needle will sink like a rock. There is no analog for metals floating on air. quote: 2. If it's a heavy metal, it ain't gonna float on dust. The nanoparticles you describe have just as much mass as the huge chunks, just less volume. If you drop a 40 lb chunk of lead and a 3 oz chunk of lead from a height, they'll both fall at the same rate. Gravitational pull is independent of size. Trade winds will not carry it anywhere. point is regardless of the weight and yes it is heavy it can be carried on dust if the particles are small enough, in the range of nano. put it this way...if the buoyancy of a chunk of dust is greater than the gravity acting against the particle and the dust it will float on the air. Thats not to say every particle of dust will have with it a particle of plutonium etc or be capable of floating it, but how many ways woud we like to slice this. Buoyancy in water (entirely different from the surface tension example you just gave) is due to something floating because it's lighter than water. Similarly, something lighter than air will soar up, but metal isotopes will not be lighter than air. quote: I'm not saying it won't find its way over here, but if the path is long enough, it'll be dispersed by the time it gets here. Remember, if the fuel is uranium, the fuel is nothing more than naturally occurring uranium that was concentrated in a centrifuge. If it's dispersed, well, that's how it was in nature in the first place. well sorta kinda.... its not like they strip the top of a field to get it you know. most is mined. 3. It will NOT be peed out. It won't get that far into the body. As I said above, it is NOT water soluble. Anythiing that is peed is absorbed into the body (usually through digestion), collected from the cells, filtered through the kidneys, and passed out. That is impossible for things that are not water soluble. If any heavy metal isotopes are ingested, they will NOT be absorbed into the stomach lining in the first place and will be excreted out (to put it politely). In other words, no damage. yup good cal I should have said shit out. if you are claiming no damage that is not correct, there certainly is damage from any ionizing radiation in your body. the longer it stays in the body the more like you will get cancer the more dna get mutated. If it get caught on something on its way through then it can and does stay there for years nuking the person. Correct. So something that stay in the body for three or four hours and then gets shit out will irradiate the body a little. if it's something with a short half life, it might irradiate significantly. But all the isotopes that are used in reactors, I believe, are isotopes with long half lives which will therefore irradiate very little while in the body for a few hours. I'm not a doctor, but I haven't heard of food that stays in the body because it got caught in the GI tract. quote: At Rocky Flats, we analyzed the four separate pathways that plutonium could enter the body - ingestion (as above, not a concern), inhalation, absorption (skin contact), and injection (entering through an open wound). Absorption was obviously not an issue since Pu is not water soluble. Injection was done by reducing sharp edges in the workplace. Inhalation was a serious concern and measures were taken to reduce it. As I said above, this depends on what the isotopes are. I sure as hell hope they're not water soluble. the problem is the size. submicron particles of any substance is well known to enter into the mitochondria simply due to its incredibly small size and has nothing to do with absorbtion.... if you are reading absorption as the same thing as "dissolving" or breaking down somehow. That is not necessary. I dont plan on looking up the precise label put in it though Um, no, that makes no sense. If something is water soluble, it can enter the cells, mitochondria and all, in an aqueous solution. If it's not water soluble, I don't see a pathway for it to enter. Please bear in mind that what I have been describing, holds for non water soluble heavy isotopes that are alpha emitters (like plutonium). If they're beta or gamma emitters, then their radiation could penetrate the skin, which alpha emitters can't do. If they have relatively short half lives, or are not physically heavy, they could remain in the ecosystem longer and do more damage.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:11:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven As I said above, this depends on what the isotopes are. I sure as hell hope they're not water soluble. We're looking at 4 isotopes - iodine-131, cesium-137, strontium-90, and plutonium-239. Of these, the iodine and cesium are water soluble. Iodine-131 has a half life of 8 days, which means it's potentially lethal for around 5 months, and cesium has a half life of around 30 years, which means it's a hazard for up to 600 years (general rule of thumb (as I'm sure you know, Stephen) is that a radioactive substance is dangerous for a period of about 10 to 20 times its half life). The heavier elements, strontium and plutonium, are not water soluble, and shouldn't pose much of a threat to anyone more than a couple of hundred miles from Japan. They'll settle out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, and won't be carried too far by ocean currents before sinking to the bottom. A very serious regional concern, obviously, but not a global catastrophe. Even the iodine and cesium probably won't affect us here in the US, because they'll disperse or "rain out" of the atmosphere before they get to our coast. I don't plan on eating any seafood that comes from that area anytime soon, though - the iodine-131 is a potential problem for sea life in that part of the ocean. Remember, one of the most disturbing effects of Chernobyl was the Russian children who developed thyroid cancer from drinking the milk of cows who had eaten grass that had been rained on by clouds carrying iodine-131. That's a bad element to have in the food chain, and I'm not too sure about the cesium, either. Going to have to study that one a bit, I think. 6 months from now, there won't be any iodine-131 left, but whatever cesium is released into the environment will be dangerous for centuries. We'll just have to see how much gets released. That's some bad shit - causes just about every type of cancer imaginable. Basically, the rule of thumb is that if it's a part of the body that can grow a tumor, cesium will cause cancer in it. Edit: Now that I think about it, I may have misspoken. I need to check on whether strontium-90 is water soluble. I know some strontium compounds are, but I was thinking strontium-90 was not one of them. However, given how easily it's taken up by the human body and assimilated into bone tissue, I wonder if I'm remembering that correctly. Does anyone else know? Stephen? MissAnnaRose? Where the heck did she go, anyway? Is she sick of us already? She really knew her shit.

domiguy -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:23:01 PM)
I will eat the seafood. I eat the seafood from the gulf. I like seafood. Most of you are fat, eat like shit, smoke, drink have unprotected sex. The least of your worries should be where your food comes from.

Marini -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:23:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven As I said above, this depends on what the isotopes are. I sure as hell hope they're not water soluble. We're looking at 4 isotopes - iodine-131, cesium-137, strontium-90, and plutonium-239. Of these, the iodine and cesium are water soluble. Iodine-131 has a half life of 8 days, which means it's potentially lethal for around 5 months, and cesium has a half life of around 30 years, which means it's a hazard for up to 600 years (general rule of thumb (as I'm sure you know, Stephen) is that a radioactive substance is dangerous for a period of about 10 to 20 times its half life). The heavier elements, strontium and plutonium, are not water soluble, and shouldn't pose much of a threat to anyone more than a couple of hundred miles from Japan. They'll settle out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, and won't be carried too far by ocean currents before sinking to the bottom. A very serious regional concern, obviously, but not a global catastrophe. Even the iodine and cesium probably won't affect us here in the US, because they'll disperse or "rain out" of the atmosphere before they get to our coast. I don't plan on eating any seafood that comes from that area anytime soon, though - the iodine-131 is a potential problem for sea life in that part of the ocean. Remember, one of the most disturbing effects of Chernobyl was the Russian children who developed thyroid cancer from drinking the milk of cows who had eaten grass that had been rained on by clouds carrying iodine-131. That's a bad element to have in the food chain, and I'm not too sure about the cesium, either. Going to have to study that one a bit, I think. 6 months from now, there won't be any iodine-131 left, but whatever cesium is released into the environment will be dangerous for centuries. We'll just have to see how much gets released. That's some bad shit - causes just about every type of cancer imaginable. Basically, the rule of thumb is that if it's a part of the body that can grow a tumor, cesium will cause cancer in it. Wonderful post, Panda man. I wish I had picked a better name for this thread. I wanted to address all the toxins and pollutants that we are dumping in the oceans, along with the many accidental oil spills, leaks, etc, that are effecting marine life, ecosystems and disrupting food chains.

DarkSteven -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:28:00 PM)
Thanks, Panda. I was basically regurgitating old knowledge, and was hoping that nothing would be water soluble. The iodine scares the crap out of me. That stuff is readily uptaken. It's also a beta/gamma emitter. Crap. The only good news is that it decays into xenon, so it will get flushed out of the ecosystem at that point. The cesium 137 decays into barium 137m, which in turn decays quickly to a stable barium isotope. Between the two decays, the cesium/barium also is a beta/gamma emitter. This is worse than I thought. [&o]

Marini -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:32:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Thanks, Panda. I was basically regurgitating old knowledge, and was hoping that nothing would be water soluble. The iodine scares the crap out of me. That stuff is readily uptaken. It's also a beta/gamma emitter. Crap. The only good news is that it decays into xenon, so it will get flushed out of the ecosystem at that point. The cesium 137 decays into barium 137m, which in turn decays quickly to a stable barium isotope. Between the two decays, the cesium/barium also is a beta/gamma emitter. This is worse than I thought. [&o] So you finally admit that the "radiation leaks" in Japan, might be a big deal? I do wonder what the long term effects will be. What are the long term effects from the contaminated water and soil? Screening for radiation from Japanese exports

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:37:01 PM)
If I recall correctly, cesium is both a beta and a strong gamma emitter. To me, that may be the most worrisome for those of us in the US. I'm not sure how much of it would make it over here in the atmosphere, but the prevailing winds are going to carry it right out over some pretty fertile fisheries in the North Pacific Ocean. That shit is going to get into the food chain - how bad, I dunno, but it will be assimilated by sea life. I'd better stock up on albacore tuna, because I may not be buying it again in my lifetime.

DarkSteven -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:43:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini So you finally admit that the "radiation leaks" in Japan, might be a big deal? I do wonder what the long term effects will be. I did hear something about radiation being found in the water, and the water effecting the soil. Yeah, I was hoping that the isotopes would be uranium and transuranics, as well as alpha emitters. They're not. Shit. The long term effects are that Japan is screwed. Their soil is going to be contaminated, and they eat a lot of fish, which will absorb the radioactive elements. TO make it worse, the US companies that have offshored to Asia, are reconsidering after this, and are talking of changing their offshoring to Mexico. So Japan gets contamination, a power outage, crises, and an economic blow to their manufacturing.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:47:21 PM)
And to expand on that - to me, this thread points out one of the most significant differences between Chernobyl and this event. Chernobyl, as horrible as it was, was in the middle of a continent. Most of the isotopes fell to the ground in rain water, and were soon incorporated into the local soils. This reactor is a few hundred yards from the world's largest ocean, and given the prevailing winds, every molecule is probably going straight into the marine food chain. I don't know yet just how bad that's going to be, but I tell ya what, right now I don't like it. I know strontium-90 is easily taken up by plants when it falls on soil, and I assume it would be readily assimilated into marine animals, as well. Between the strontium and the cesium.... well, like I say, I don't know yet. But I do know that I don't feel good about it right now. I want to study this a lot more.

Real0ne -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:56:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I'm not concerned with the food being radiated from Japan since I'm sure it would be tested before being put on my plate but I am concerned that prices for seafood will skyrocket beyond belief, especially tuna. If the prices go sky high I won't be able to afford it anymore anyway. Sigh...and I so adore sushi. I basically live off of it in the summer. its impossible to test for trace amounts. there is no equipment sensitive enough for that task.

Real0ne -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/16/2011 9:59:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven As I said above, this depends on what the isotopes are. I sure as hell hope they're not water soluble. We're looking at 4 isotopes - iodine-131, cesium-137, strontium-90, and plutonium-239. Of these, the iodine and cesium are water soluble. Iodine-131 has a half life of 8 days, which means it's potentially lethal for around 5 months, and cesium has a half life of around 30 years, which means it's a hazard for up to 600 years (general rule of thumb (as I'm sure you know, Stephen) is that a radioactive substance is dangerous for a period of about 10 to 20 times its half life). The heavier elements, strontium and plutonium, are not water soluble, and shouldn't pose much of a threat to anyone more than a couple of hundred miles from Japan. They'll settle out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, and won't be carried too far by ocean currents before sinking to the bottom. A very serious regional concern, obviously, but not a global catastrophe. Even the iodine and cesium probably won't affect us here in the US, because they'll disperse or "rain out" of the atmosphere before they get to our coast. I don't plan on eating any seafood that comes from that area anytime soon, though - the iodine-131 is a potential problem for sea life in that part of the ocean. Remember, one of the most disturbing effects of Chernobyl was the Russian children who developed thyroid cancer from drinking the milk of cows who had eaten grass that had been rained on by clouds carrying iodine-131. That's a bad element to have in the food chain, and I'm not too sure about the cesium, either. Going to have to study that one a bit, I think. 6 months from now, there won't be any iodine-131 left, but whatever cesium is released into the environment will be dangerous for centuries. We'll just have to see how much gets released. That's some bad shit - causes just about every type of cancer imaginable. Basically, the rule of thumb is that if it's a part of the body that can grow a tumor, cesium will cause cancer in it. Edit: Now that I think about it, I may have misspoken. I need to check on whether strontium-90 is water soluble. I know some strontium compounds are, but I was thinking strontium-90 was not one of them. However, given how easily it's taken up by the human body and assimilated into bone tissue, I wonder if I'm remembering that correctly. Does anyone else know? Stephen? MissAnnaRose? Where the heck did she go, anyway? Is she sick of us already? She really knew her shit. Here is the thing.... why are we farting around with this shit when cold fusion is proven by los alamos and also the teslas 1/4 wave resonator? I have seen reports of 1500% on cold fusion and 1000 on teslas transmitter. Is it time to take these commercialists to task before they destroy this whole fucking planet?

DarkSteven -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/17/2011 6:29:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Here is the thing.... why are we farting around with this shit when cold fusion is proven by los alamos and also the teslas 1/4 wave resonator? I have seen reports of 1500% on cold fusion and 1000 on teslas transmitter. Is it time to take these commercialists to task before they destroy this whole fucking planet? Because cold fusion has never been proven to work. Pons and Fleischmann, its pioneers, went directly to the media instead of having their work peer reviewed, which gave it a stigma out the starting gate. Then when other scientists coudn't replicate the results, it turned into a huge fiasco. Los Alamos just dropped cold fusion, although I don't know if they did prior to experimentation, or after bad experimental results: http://articles.latimes.com/1989-06-14/news/mn-2042_1_fusion-claims-pons-and-fleischmann-cold-fusion I don't follow about the Tesla 1/4 wave resonator. Evidently it is some kind of finely tuned coil that has low impedance. Are you trying to state that it could be used as an energy SOURCE? If so, no way.

outhere69 -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/17/2011 8:04:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: Marini So you finally admit that the "radiation leaks" in Japan, might be a big deal? I do wonder what the long term effects will be. I did hear something about radiation being found in the water, and the water effecting the soil. Yeah, I was hoping that the isotopes would be uranium and transuranics, as well as alpha emitters. They're not. Shit. The long term effects are that Japan is screwed. Their soil is going to be contaminated, and they eat a lot of fish, which will absorb the radioactive elements. TO make it worse, the US companies that have offshored to Asia, are reconsidering after this, and are talking of changing their offshoring to Mexico. So Japan gets contamination, a power outage, crises, and an economic blow to their manufacturing. That's interesting, because they had a lot of manufacturing around Tijuana back in the '90s, but eventually moved to even cheaper places. RO, if a Tesla coil worked then everyone would've jumped on the bandwagon. No one has come close to exceeding break-even with fusion. The only reason fusion works in bombs is because you can get enough energy out of it before it blows the reaction mass apart. And that's in nanoseconds, IIRC.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Will you be eating anything from Japan again? (3/18/2011 3:28:33 AM)
Of all the "issues" discussed on this forum, I think this is the most critical. This event is a game-changer. The fallout from this catastrophe (pun intended) is going to influence energy-related public policy decisions for a long time. Compared to this, the "no-fly zone" is trivial. Instead of going off about silly shit like NPR, any repub who has a vestigal brain should be asking why that douche effluent snorter Reagan tore the solar installation off the White House. If we had all turned down the thermostats, and super-insulated our homes and businesses, and started serious research into non-fossil fuel energy, we wouldn't even need to consider nuclear. I actually heard some moronic evangelical rightard fuck say on a documentary I just watched (think it was "Haysus Camp", but I'm not sure; might have been "Escape from Suburbia") that we didn't need to worry about using up oil, or the Peak Oil problem. God put the oil there for us to use, and God will provide the answer when we start to run out. This insane Jeebus-rimming fantasy is rightard official policy, and has been. Anyone who supports this Demonic energy "policy" is a traitor to their fellow citizens, and to their own children and grandchildren. I piss in their mothers milk.

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