RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective?

RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (Full Version)

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Marini -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 10:29:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl More assistance? Hell, I get none now. Because I dont have a house full of kids and can speak english, im not eligible for anything. sorry tazzy, they all speak English? you are doomed, we only help people here illegally or just barely legal right now. You will get more assistance if you go to Libya. They are next on the list. Always remember! American citizens LAST!

kdsub -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 10:33:23 PM)
Is everyone here absolutely sure they know, without a doubt, the wishes of the people of Libya? I sure don't and I doubt you do either…so why are we so anxious to pick a side. Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 10:45:37 PM)
Well that falls under that old"do whats right" thing,doesn't it?Surely you would agree that of the two sides in the dispute there is no question which is more closely aligned,or at least has a chance to mature into something akin to,our own ideals of freedom and prosperity for all...rather than the tyrannical rule of one man and his minions....while the populace suffers. Is there any question about this?

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 10:53:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Butch when what is right intersects with what is politically expediant(which is the case here....and which panda's post illustrated beautifully)than you go ahead and do it. But is it right? Who are we to decide... Who made us the know alls of this world... Can't you see how we are repeating our mistakes over and over... and killing our boys and girls in the process. Let these people decide their own fates...Let the people in that part of the world decide what is right. We are always well meaning when we interfere and it bites us in the ass every time. Butch How can you doubt if it is right.....it is a populist uprising against a dictator.How can it be wrong? Who could describe Qaddafi as anything but a dictator....hell the word benevolant doesn't even enter into the equation.A sponsor of terrorism,faced with a populist uprising.....Russia and China abstain from the vote(when you can't get those guys to back your play,if only to tick us off,you know you are one fucked up tyrant)where do we go wrong by joining and sponsoring a UN NFZ.....how does leveling the playing field to support the very ideals we espouse bite us in the ass?

kdsub -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 10:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well that falls under that old"do whats right" thing,doesn't it?Surely you would agree that of the two sides in the dispute there is no question which is more closely aligned,or at least has a chance to mature into something akin to,our own ideals of freedom and prosperity for all...rather than the tyrannical rule of one man and his minions....while the populace suffers. Is there any question about this? There are a lot of countries and peoples not aligned with us... should we bomb them all? Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 11:15:51 PM)
No,obviously not...but here is a populist revolt...being brutally dealt with by a dictator,a dictator who in the past has had his fingers all over terrorist attacks aimed at U.S.citizens(resulting in a high number of deaths of those same citizens...and soldiers) in addition the weight of the UN is behind this....which means this isn't another example of the US acting unilaterly.Under those conditions I think it is right and proper that we co-operate with the UN in enforcing the no fly.

ChiDS -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 11:17:04 PM)
My opinion is that it is currently not too late. But sadly if we wait much longer the rebels aren't going to be able to hold out. I still wish Egypt would help them. They share boarders it wouldn't be difficult.

tweakabelle -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/17/2011 11:53:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Butch when what is right intersects with what is politically expediant(which is the case here....and which panda's post illustrated beautifully)than you go ahead and do it. But is it right? Who are we to decide... Who made us the know alls of this world... Can't you see how we are repeating our mistakes over and over... and killing our boys and girls in the process. Butch There are a few factors operating here that enable a different perspective this time round. It seems to me that the key factors that are enabling this intervention are: 1. The call by the Arab League for a no fly zone; and 2. THe UN Security Council agreement.* The Arab League call means that the international community is responding to a virtually unanimous request from the region for assistance. The UN Security Council agreement is necessary for the West probably via NATO to respond legally to that request. Because of these two factors, intervention cannot be said to be a unilateral invasion, it is the international community joining together to enforce international law. Without either of these two factors being operative, intervention could be seen as another Iraq-type cowboy effort and therefore discredited. While it took its time in materialising, this intervention is a success for the multi-lateral approach, building a consensus and coalition of nations who want to prevent genocide and enforce the legal standards that ought to apply universally. On a US-specific level, my feeling is that Obama played it masterfully. With a very limited range of options available (due directly to the legacy of Bush-era unilateral adventures/disasters) he has done all he could to ensure a successful outcome, while minimising costs and downside to the USA. And gone a long way to repairing the reputation and stocks of the US internationally after Bush trashed it so thoroughly. Let's remember that the Security Council mandate specifically excludes* the use of ground troops. They cannot be deployed under this mandate. You can read the entire resolution here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/17/un-security-council-resolution

Sanity -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 3:50:31 AM)
quote: On a US-specific level, my feeling is that Obama played it masterfully. Obamas golf game may be improving but the pundits are saying he is aloof and detached, and that this is Hillarys war: quote: Clinton’s position was vindicated early Thursday evening when the United Nations Security Council - at the urging of the United States - approved a resolution authorizing “all necessary measures” to protect Libyan civilians, including a no-fly zone. U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice told reporters that such a move could involve direct attacks on pro-Qadhafi forces now bearing down on the rebel stronghold of Benghazi in eastern Libya. Clinton’s persistence in the anti-Qadhafi cause has been such a constant in the White House in recent days that Obama, according to reports, joked about Clinton lobbing rocks through his window during his remarks at Saturday night’s Gridiron dinner. “Stay tuned,” said one Clinton friend when asked if the secretary would ultimately prevail. [image]http://images.politico.com/global/news/110317_clinton_new_ap_605.jpg[/image] Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51515.html#ixzz1GwlbB8E3

rulemylife -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 4:06:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse It wouldn't have cost to much to take out the runways that allowed Qaddafi's jets to take off. It would have at least given the rebels a chance. Of course not, practically costs nothing to fly all those aircraft. But be sure to come back and complain again about the waste of money the next time Obama takes a trip on Air Force One.

rulemylife -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 4:22:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub OK…I’ll take the heat… What damn business is it of the US , if we are asked to provide air intercepts and put our boys and girls in harms way, to interfere in a civil war? Yes the man is a nut case but he is being supported not only by his army… but it seems a good portion of Libyans. It is for them to straighten out…not the UN… or the US. If there is to be any action or interference let the Arab world of surrounding countries step in. Butch Butch, you make a great argument. I enjoy hearing different opinions, we do live in a free country, don't we? I protested the war in Iraq twice before we invaded that country. I cried the day we started bombing Iraq. we can trot our asses to Iraq and be involved THERE for almost 10 years and counting. Tell me {cause I still don't know} why the FUCK are we in Iraq? Why the hell can't we go in with UN support and help those that we CAN CLEARLY SEE NEED AND DESERVE support????? Well, I guess I'm confused. You protested Iraq but now want us in Libya? We decided to depose one dictator and became involved in a civil war but now you are supporting the same thing?

thishereboi -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 4:39:26 AM)
quote: Do I have to buy some gadget from China or Japan to listen to the "Sanity channel"? For the goddesses sake don't do it Marini.....you will be hearing ugly for the rest of your life.

tazzygirl -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 5:54:19 AM)
BENGHAZI, Libya (AFP) – Libya shut down its air space on Friday as Britain and France were expected to scramble fighter jets against Moamer Kadhafi's forces after they secured the UN Security Council's blessing. Eurocontrol, the continent's air traffic agency, said Tripoli "does not accept traffic" until further notice, citing information from Maltese authorities, as France announced air strikes would be imminent. Kadhafi's son Seif al-Islam said Friday his family was "not afraid" as the Libyan foreign ministry said Tripoli was ready for a ceasefire but wanted to discuss its terms. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110318/wl_afp/libyaunrestmideast_20110318114703

rulemylife -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:02:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u How can you doubt if it is right.....it is a populist uprising against a dictator.How can it be wrong? Who could describe Qaddafi as anything but a dictator....hell the word benevolant doesn't even enter into the equation.A sponsor of terrorism,faced with a populist uprising... You do know you are echoing the exact arguments the neo-cons used to advocate and justify invading Iraq? War for Peace: Neoconservative Networks, Strategic Issue Framing ... Cheney noted one object that should guide the actions of “civilized people”: the promotion of democracy, through cooperation and military action if necessary. In his words, promoting the spread of democracy “is the right thing to do.”

Aneirin -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:05:30 AM)
Fast Reply Although some on these boards may believe myself to be pro Islam, so in effect 'for' the Arabs, my position on this Western intervetion in what is an Arab affair can, if not very careful go drastically wrong, as it is, Western interference in Arab affairs has in the past been used as a rallying point for those who act against the west. Now for the west to get involved, that is spend money and possibly lives there has to be something in it for the West, and yes, that country has oil, a comodity the west wants a continued supply of at the prices it gets it now, or cheaper, so, it is to me a go lightly, go carefully on this situation, as get real, we aren't getting involved for free, or because we see a ruler quelling a public uprising in a country, our history shows unless there is something in it for us, we tend to let countries develop on their own. Now, if there is anything to be done about this situation, then I believe, it should be spear headed by the countries of the region, if it is they see what the west is seeing if what we are seeing is a human tragedy happening, by all means aid them if they decide to intervene, but the Western world going wading in as usual how will it be seen, more of the same to some regardless of the stated intention. What is it, could it be after years of unashamed interference in the Arab region, we now wish to show we are something else, how is that going to look on the ground, foreign forces possibly US forces in an Arab country, and what of those foreign forces when it is the rebels decide they don't like the current leader who is in place after the tyrant has been deposed, for that is not uncommon in the forging of nations, the confusion and power grab after revolution. If the west is to do anything on it's own, then it is to solve the immediate problem, deny the tyrant air superiority, disable his aviation facilities. But then, the Arab world has such aircraft capable of that, the pilots and the airfield denial weapons, if anything foreign is to be seen flying over Libya, then let it be the insignia of an Arab nation on behalf of their own ethnicity.

Sanity -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:10:20 AM)
Define neo-con, if you can. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You do know you are echoing the exact arguments the neo-cons used to advocate and justify invading Iraq? War for Peace: Neoconservative Networks, Strategic Issue Framing ... Cheney noted one object that should guide the actions of “civilized people”: the promotion of democracy, through cooperation and military action if necessary. In his words, promoting the spread of democracy “is the right thing to do.”

Sanity -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:11:40 AM)
And certain thick headed little morons wonder why I am not very nice to them. quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: Do I have to buy some gadget from China or Japan to listen to the "Sanity channel"? For the goddesses sake don't do it Marini.....you will be hearing ugly for the rest of your life.

Sanity -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:15:34 AM)
Did you forget to take your dementia pills panda? One day you claim I am on your ignore list the next youre coming unhinged because Ive been pushing all of your buttons again... Funny [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda What frequency is that alien radio station that plays in your head? I'd like to give it a listen sometime.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:19:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Fast Reply Although some on these boards may believe myself to be pro Islam, so in effect 'for' the Arabs, my position on this Western intervetion in what is an Arab affair can, if not very careful go drastically wrong, as it is, Western interference in Arab affairs has in the past been used as a rallying point for those who act against the west. Now for the west to get involved, that is spend money and possibly lives there has to be something in it for the West, and yes, that country has oil, a comodity the west wants a continued supply of at the prices it gets it now, or cheaper, so, it is to me a go lightly, go carefully on this situation, as get real, we aren't getting involved for free, or because we see a ruler quelling a public uprising in a country, our history shows unless there is something in it for us, we tend to let countries develop on their own. Now, if there is anything to be done about this situation, then I believe, it should be spear headed by the countries of the region, if it is they see what the west is seeing if what we are seeing is a human tragedy happening, by all means aid them if they decide to intervene, but the Western world going wading in as usual how will it be seen, more of the same to some regardless of the stated intention. What is it, could it be after years of unashamed interference in the Arab region, we now wish to show we are something else, how is that going to look on the ground, foreign forces possibly US forces in an Arab country, and what of those foreign forces when it is the rebels decide they don't like the current leader who is in place after the tyrant has been deposed, for that is not uncommon in the forging of nations, the confusion and power grab after revolution. If the west is to do anything on it's own, then it is to solve the immediate problem, deny the tyrant air superiority, disable his aviation facilities. But then, the Arab world has such aircraft capable of that, the pilots and the airfield denial weapons, if anything foreign is to be seen flying over Libya, then let it be the insignia of an Arab nation on behalf of their own ethnicity. You are joking, right? You think the House of Saud is going to use their F-15s to help overthrow Qaddafi, and send the message that democracy is better for the Saudis than the House of Saud? You come up with some positively goofy shit.

rulemylife -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/18/2011 6:24:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Define neo-con, if you can. Why would you suggest that would be difficult? neoconservative - definition of neoconservative ne·o·con·ser·va·tism also ne·o-con·ser·va·tism (n[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif[/image][image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif[/image][image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gif[/image]-k[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]n-sûr[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/image]v[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]-t[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif[/image]z[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif[/image][image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]m)n. An intellectual and political movement in favor of political, economic, and social conservatism that arose in opposition to the perceived liberalism of the 1960s: "The neo-conservatism of the 1980s is a replay of the New Conservatism of the 1950s, which was itself a replay of the New Era philosophy of the 1920s" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)

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