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Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 8:30:16 PM

TheHeretic

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I'm not sure how this works. Maybe someone more familiar with the Canadian system can explain the mechanics. As I'm understanding this story, the parents of a terminally ill child want a procedure they believe will prolong his life. A pretty natural sort of instinct, I think. People at the hospital (and above?) have decided that they are dealing with a cute potato, and it's a lot cheaper to just let him go. Sure. A tracheotomy isn't a heart transplant, but all those nickels add up, you know.

Ok. That's a pretty shitty situation. We have insurance companies in the US that will try to do the same. What I want to understand clearly is, why these people had to leave the country to have a simple surgery. In the US, sell the second car, put every toy, book, knick-knack on e-bay and get bikers to do a poker run, then go pay cash. Why did they have to get a charity to charter a jet and fly them here? Is the word of the death panel the law of the land?

I'm sure some people would prefer to call them life panels, or just mash it into bureaucratic gobbledy gook, but a group of people, who aren't the family, getting the final say in end of life care needs to be called a spade. Or even a fucking shovel, if that's what it takes.

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Baby+Joseph+tracheotomy+week/4435461/story.html

I happen to disagree with the choice the parents are making, but isn't it still their child/cute potato?

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 3/18/2011 8:31:49 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 1

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 8:38:45 PM

gehennasfury

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I suppose that when a hospital makes a determination in a terminal illness case, the decision stands. From my interpretation, the parents had absolutely no standing in the care of their child. I guess this is what happens we leave our medical care needs to the bean counters of corporations and/or government. No matter what you do, there will always be someone saying that it's either bad for you, your family, your pets, the environment, or the planet. It may even *gasp* be against the law.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 2

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 8:39:13 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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No where in the article does it even imply the tracheotomy will prolong his life. So it was an unnecessary procedure being done for the convenience of the parents with no benefit and plenty of possible downside for the child. The hospital that did it needs to hire some real ethicists.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 3

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 8:41:01 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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Terrible tragedy, of course, but I fail to see the problem here.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 8:50:19 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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My question is.. why didnt the charity pay for him to have the procedure in Canada?

An independent Ontario tribunal, the Consent and Capacity Board, and a Superior Court judge both sided with LHSC. But the case sparked an outcry from U.S. pro-life and anti-euthanasia groups, who quickly organized to get Joseph into an American hospital.

"We're not saying that people should be kept alive at any cost. Nor are we saying that there's any specific treatment plan here that we're imposing," Pavone said. "What we're saying is 'Give the baby reasonable care and listen to the parents who want to give the baby a second chance in an American hospital.'"

This is what it seems to me they are doing. Canada said no.

About a dozen U.S. hospitals turned Joseph down, likely out of fear of all the media attention surrounding the case, said Rev. Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life.

Likely out of fear? Seems this Rev likes to stir the pot. He had no knowledge of why, just his opinion, which I would hardly call unbiased.

In a news release, Pavone described Joseph's transfer from London as a "rescue mission," done "under the cover of darkness."

"I said that because that's what it was psychologically for the family," Pavone said in an interview.

But the family's Windsor lawyer, Claudio Martini, who negotiated Joseph's release, said LHSC was co-operative and "respectful" of the parents' decision.

This is all media hype.

The family wants something the government said no too. In Canada, or so I believed, you could get a procedure faster if you could pay. What the article doesnt say is who was supposed to pay in Canada. If its the government, then, yes, they do get a say. If it was the family, then why are so many religious groups jumping on the bandwagon to pay for this and that.

This has nothing to do with the baby, and everything to do with politics.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Post #: 5

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:03:56 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
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quote:

About a dozen U.S. hospitals turned Joseph down, likely out of fear of all the media attention surrounding the case, said Rev. Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life.

Likely out of fear? Seems this Rev likes to stir the pot. He had no knowledge of why, just his opinion, which I would hardly call unbiased.

Hospitals turning down sick babies..isn't that something to be proud of.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 6

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:09:40 PM

Brain

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This baby is going to die with this operation and since there is no benefit in performing the operation it was decided it should not be done.

In the United States decisions are made by private insurance companies not to provide medicine or medically intervene when lives can be saved or when there is benefit in order to save money.

This is why people in Canada live longer while spending less money on health care than the United States.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm not sure how this works. Maybe someone more familiar with the Canadian system can explain the mechanics. As I'm understanding this story, the parents of a terminally ill child want a procedure they believe will prolong his life. A pretty natural sort of instinct, I think. People at the hospital (and above?) have decided that they are dealing with a cute potato, and it's a lot cheaper to just let him go. Sure. A tracheotomy isn't a heart transplant, but all those nickels add up, you know.

Ok. That's a pretty shitty situation. We have insurance companies in the US that will try to do the same. What I want to understand clearly is, why these people had to leave the country to have a simple surgery. In the US, sell the second car, put every toy, book, knick-knack on e-bay and get bikers to do a poker run, then go pay cash. Why did they have to get a charity to charter a jet and fly them here? Is the word of the death panel the law of the land?

I'm sure some people would prefer to call them life panels, or just mash it into bureaucratic gobbledy gook, but a group of people, who aren't the family, getting the final say in end of life care needs to be called a spade. Or even a fucking shovel, if that's what it takes.

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Baby+Joseph+tracheotomy+week/4435461/story.html

I happen to disagree with the choice the parents are making, but isn't it still their child/cute potato?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 7

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:15:20 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Hospitals turning down sick babies..isn't that something to be proud of.

Its not like the parents were driving from hospital to hospital, begging for care. The child was in a hospital. The religious group went looking for a US hospital to transfer the baby to. This wasnt a medical emergency.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 8

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:18:18 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

This wasnt a medical emergency.

It strikes me as a publicity stunt, U.S. culture warriors using a vegetative, dying baby as a prop.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 9

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:18:50 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Exactly.

This has a two fold effect.

First, to show how socialized medicine is "bad".

Second, to prop up the GOP, Fox News and religios groups as the "heros"

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 3/18/2011 9:19:53 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 10

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:21:30 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Terrible tragedy, of course, but I fail to see the problem here.

As I'm understanding it, Panda, this family was denied the final say in the care of their child, by their government. That just creeps me out a little, you know?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 11

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:25:04 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

This wasnt a medical emergency.

Maybe not but what about the wishes of the parents that are going to lose a child. Compassion has pretty much been squeezed out and replaced by greed. One could call that a different type of emergency.

Politics are most likely involved but it's not the only issues nor is it the most important ones.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 12

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:28:34 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Maybe not but what about the wishes of the parents that are going to lose a child. Compassion has pretty much been squeezed out and replaced by greed. One could call that a different type of emergency.

I dont believe compassion has been squeezed out.

where specialists recommended the child be taken off life support because he suffers from a fatal neurological disorder and is in a vegetative state.

This wasnt the government making this decision.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 13

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:29:09 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

As I'm understanding it, Panda, this family was denied the final say in the care of their child, by their government. That just creeps me out a little, you know?

I see your point, Rich, and I agree that the family's wishes are important. But are they the sole source of moral authority in a case like this? Isn't possible that, in their human grief and reluctance to let go, that their wishes may not be entirely reality-based, that they may actually be putting their own emotional needs ahead of the child's best interest?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 14

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:31:52 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Compassion has pretty much been squeezed out and replaced by greed.

Two questions:

(a) Is it compassionate to the child--who, not the parents, is the patient--to perform an invasive procedure that does not appear to offer him any benefits?

(b) Where do you see the "greed" in this case?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 15

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:34:07 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Maybe not but what about the wishes of the parents that are going to lose a child. Compassion has pretty much been squeezed out and replaced by greed. One could call that a different type of emergency.

I dont believe compassion has been squeezed out.

where specialists recommended the child be taken off life support because he suffers from a fatal neurological disorder and is in a vegetative state.

This wasnt the government making this decision.

My question here would be.. What benefit would the procedure have produced? If there was a benefit, even if it was to prolong the child's life so that the family could take their child home to die..Then that's their right and no hospital worth a shit has a right to decline them.

People spend millions yearly to opt for medical procedures that are far from emergencies including but not limited to plastic surgery. Doctors are lining up for that.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 16

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:35:19 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
It strikes me as a publicity stunt, U.S. culture warriors using a vegetative, dying baby as a prop.

Picking the right victim is a staple of the game, DC. Seen the HBO production of "Thurgood?" The issue remains. Who makes the final decision? The parent, or the State?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 17

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:37:22 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

(b) Where do you see the "greed" in this case?

That was a personal observation..It wasn't meant to have anything to do with this case necessarily.

As for the other question..read my previous post.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 18

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:38:51 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

I see no greed. The procedure is simple and quick. The cost of the machinary, respiratory therapists, complications, is not so simple or cheap. If the child could have, even remotely, benefited from the procedure, I would be on the bandwagon wanting to know "WTF??".

As it stands, its a fatal disease, one that took the life of his older sister. There is no point, except to assuage the parents guilt at the time of death that all was "done", to doing this.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 19

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/18/2011 9:39:00 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Isn't possible that, in their human grief and reluctance to let go, that their wishes may not be entirely reality-based, that they may actually be putting their own emotional needs ahead of the child's best interest?

Unless we are willing to call what they want to do criminal, shouldn't the final decision rest with them, DC? Isn't it their cute potato?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 20

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