mind fucks

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princess2m -> mind fucks (3/21/2011 2:55:56 PM)
Hello. I am a sub who is fairly new to the lifestyle and I have been doing some reading online. One concept that I am having trouble wrapping my mind around (no pun intended) is the philosophy behind and purpose of the "mind fuck". I think I understand what it is, but conceptually, I do not have a clear understanding. Would respectfully like to hear other's perspectives on this topic. Thank you so much! Princess

tazzygirl -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:04:14 PM)
ooooooo i adore a good mind fuck... in the right place and time. An example of a mind fuck might be a Dominant and a sub at home, He is pulling out some knives from a case, Cutting a piece of paper with ease while the sub watches, indicating the sharpness of each. The Dom then ties up the sub, blindfolding her, all the while whispering into her ear how the sight of blood and cut flesh excites him and how she is his sub, so she should trust him. (keep in mind, she does trust him for this to actually work) As the first kiss fo steel flickers across her (or his) flesh, she feels a wetness against her skin. In her mind, he has just cut her. In reality, he has pulled an extremely dull knife from his his case, along with a small bottle of oil. Its all in her head, and her excitement is growing. Some may term this as role play. To me, its a great mind fuck. And can be played out many way, knives not being a requirement. For instance, the Dom takes his sub for a ride. During the ride, he instructs her to put on a blind fold. No explanation given. He then drives her for a while so she doesnt know her bearings. they end up back at home (unbeknownst to her). He leaves her briefly at the door, slips inside and turns on a CD of a room full of people laughing and chatting up a storm, giving her the impression she is at a party. As he walks her through the room, he fondles her breasts, strokes her thighs, grabs at her ass, leaving her with the impression that other people are doing all this. Im sure you can imagine how many different ways this could play out.

princess2m -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:08:16 PM)
Thank you for the great examples Tazzy!

leadership527 -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:11:04 PM)
Please note. I don't have any opinion on those who engage in "mind fucks". If it works for them, great. But in the interests of showing other sides to this question, I'd like to point out that everything Tazzy said would be perceived as lying and deception in my marriage and so it'd have all the usual results of that behavior. Carol would process this as me being "untrustworthy" because I led her to believe one thing while another was true. If I did that regularly, she would come to believe nothing I said. Hell, in fact, I'd think of it as lying also.

princess2m -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:14:29 PM)
Leadership527, Thank you for your viewpoint! Although I am not weighing in pro or con on this approach, I do see your perspective. This is one of the reasons I am trying to understand the philosophy behind them. Thanks again!

agirl -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:15:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: princess2m Hello. I am a sub who is fairly new to the lifestyle and I have been doing some reading online. One concept that I am having trouble wrapping my mind around (no pun intended) is the philosophy behind and purpose of the "mind fuck". I think I understand what it is, but conceptually, I do not have a clear understanding. Would respectfully like to hear other's perspectives on this topic. Thank you so much! Princess I can't offer any insight as to the purpose........I've never had to explain it before. Here, it throws everything about us into relief. The purpose is only relevant to us. Our mind fuck is someone else's utter nightmare. I'm not sure that it's explainable.....nor yet explain it's purpose. Rudimentally, we see each other. Sounds shit, doesn't it? agirl

princess2m -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:17:56 PM)
Thank you for the response "agirl"! Best wishes!

Palliata -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:24:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ooooooo i adore a good mind fuck... in the right place and time. An example of a mind fuck might be a Dominant and a sub at home, He is pulling out some knives from a case, Cutting a piece of paper with ease while the sub watches, indicating the sharpness of each. The Dom then ties up the sub, blindfolding her, all the while whispering into her ear how the sight of blood and cut flesh excites him and how she is his sub, so she should trust him. (keep in mind, she does trust him for this to actually work) As the first kiss fo steel flickers across her (or his) flesh, she feels a wetness against her skin. In her mind, he has just cut her. In reality, he has pulled an extremely dull knife from his his case, along with a small bottle of oil. Its all in her head, and her excitement is growing. Some may term this as role play. To me, its a great mind fuck. And can be played out many way, knives not being a requirement. Eerily perfect description of my first attempt at knife play - to me it seemed like an excellent way to experience what it would be like without actually risking damage. Since then I've mostly left off of it in favor of "real" knife play, but still fun once in a while quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Please note. I don't have any opinion on those who engage in "mind fucks". If it works for them, great. But in the interests of showing other sides to this question, I'd like to point out that everything Tazzy said would be perceived as lying and deception in my marriage and so it'd have all the usual results of that behavior. Carol would process this as me being "untrustworthy" because I led her to believe one thing while another was true. If I did that regularly, she would come to believe nothing I said. Hell, in fact, I'd think of it as lying also. The way I've always thought of it is that lying under normal circumstances is completely unacceptable from either side, within the bounds of a relationship, but within a purely sexual context the not knowing can be exciting. I make it clear with subs up front that I have a tendency to do things like that, so as to prevent any sense of my being an inherently dishonest person. It seems to work out fairly well. That said, I can see where you're coming from with it and that's something that took me quite a bit of philosophising to reconcile.

princess2m -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:31:43 PM)
Palliata, I like your upfront approach to indicating your "style" to subs. Thank you for posting!

tazzygirl -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:32:08 PM)
quote: Please note. I don't have any opinion on those who engage in "mind fucks". If it works for them, great. But in the interests of showing other sides to this question, I'd like to point out that everything Tazzy said would be perceived as lying and deception in my marriage and so it'd have all the usual results of that behavior. Carol would process this as me being "untrustworthy" because I led her to believe one thing while another was true. If I did that regularly, she would come to believe nothing I said. Hell, in fact, I'd think of it as lying also. As I stated, trust would have to be an integral part of the scenario. That level of trust differs from person to person, relationship to relationship. There is no way this would work with someone who is adament against such events. I trusted my ex like no other. I easily could be led by him where ever he wanted to lead. I could also trust that he knew my limits, knew I would never want to be used by another, in any way, shape or form. Knowing the man he was, and his consideration for my feelings, as well as the continutation of our relationship, the mind fucks were all for my benefit. They were a turn on. But only in my mind. I trusted he would never hurt me physically. I trusted he would never share me. These things were firmly implanted and ingrained into my mind and soul. It takes alot of planning and thinking to do a great mind fuck. I actually was quite pleased that he would go to such lengths to please me. It merely made me want to please him more. Especially after the mind fuck when he would say... "remember, you are MINE alone, bitch". [:D]

LillyBoPeep -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:39:56 PM)
i personally enjoy mind fucks; like the others have said, it kinda depends on how deception is defined between people. leadership's opinion is worthwhile to think about because there are quite a few people who look at it that way. to me, mind fucks aren't outright lying, they're "suspension of disbelief," kind of like watching a play. for me, it's most successful with someone who knows me well and can really get into my head. headgames can be a lot of fun with the right person. it can also be helpful when the ploy of the mind fuck is explained later. one example from my own experience would be a time when M played around with my fear of the dark. he tied me up in duct tape and let me believe that he'd left, even though all he did was go to take a shower. where i was in the house, i couldn't hear the shower running, i just heard what sounded like a door opening, and then nothing. later he came back, and the rest of the experience ensued. the next day, he explained it all to me during the "after action report." =p i think doing that, plus a good track record of honesty in the relationship helps keep a person from thinking that his/her partner is just a terrible, deceptive person.

agirl -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:42:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ooooooo i adore a good mind fuck... in the right place and time. An example of a mind fuck might be a Dominant and a sub at home, He is pulling out some knives from a case, Cutting a piece of paper with ease while the sub watches, indicating the sharpness of each. The Dom then ties up the sub, blindfolding her, all the while whispering into her ear how the sight of blood and cut flesh excites him and how she is his sub, so she should trust him. (keep in mind, she does trust him for this to actually work) As the first kiss fo steel flickers across her (or his) flesh, she feels a wetness against her skin. In her mind, he has just cut her. In reality, he has pulled an extremely dull knife from his his case, along with a small bottle of oil. Its all in her head, and her excitement is growing. Some may term this as role play. To me, its a great mind fuck. And can be played out many way, knives not being a requirement. For instance, the Dom takes his sub for a ride. During the ride, he instructs her to put on a blind fold. No explanation given. He then drives her for a while so she doesnt know her bearings. they end up back at home (unbeknownst to her). He leaves her briefly at the door, slips inside and turns on a CD of a room full of people laughing and chatting up a storm, giving her the impression she is at a party. As he walks her through the room, he fondles her breasts, strokes her thighs, grabs at her ass, leaving her with the impression that other people are doing all this. Im sure you can imagine how many different ways this could play out. This is why it's so personal..This would be laughable. Seriously. A mind-fuck has to be believable at the VERY least. It'd not mind fuck me in the least if I found it was some elaborate game. I'm incredibly boring in that way. agirl

leadership527 -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:52:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Palliata The way I've always thought of it is that lying under normal circumstances is completely unacceptable from either side, within the bounds of a relationship, but within a purely sexual context the not knowing can be exciting. I make it clear with subs up front that I have a tendency to do things like that, so as to prevent any sense of my being an inherently dishonest person. It seems to work out fairly well. That said, I can see where you're coming from with it and that's something that took me quite a bit of philosophising to reconcile. Again, just to be really clear. I fully well understand how it is that "some" lying can be good and appropriate and I'm not suggesting that "mind fucks" are necessarily bad. I get it that we can have a zone of activity in which deception is good -- surprise birthday party anyone? I was only pointing out that between Carol and I it wouldn't be good. We don't do "play" or "scenes". So for us there is just "Real life" and that would mean any deception is "real deception". This isn't a good or bad thing... just a question about how we process our reality.

tazzygirl -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 3:56:01 PM)
LOL.. a friend of mine told me about her Dom telling her one day, while he had her tied up, he wanted to take a shit on her chest. She was mad. He blindfolded her, clothes pinned her nose shut, then went through the motions of dropping his pants and squatting over her chest. She felt the plop and started screaming. He even took pictures! She ranted and raved. For days she was complaining, even contemplated leaving him. He finally admitted it was a snickers bar, warmed up, ooey and gooey... mad... she was one mad hen! Not all mind fucks are sexual, or good. His mind fuck was about trust... and the fact that she had none. Btw, they are still together, and every once in a while he will pull out a snickers, lear at her and say... Shall we?.. which sends her off into a rant of fake grumbling with a goofy grin on her face.

SexyBlackMan2 -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 4:15:30 PM)
Have you ever seen the movie, Inception? If so, what happens in the very last scene is a mindfuck.

porcelaine -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 4:20:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: princess2m Hello. I am a sub who is fairly new to the lifestyle and I have been doing some reading online. One concept that I am having trouble wrapping my mind around (no pun intended) is the philosophy behind and purpose of the "mind fuck" Greetings, As others have mentioned it is a personal experience. There's also a marked difference in the degree it implies and the ultimate goal of its instigator. Some seek to create fear and others use it as a tool to tear them down. There are those that do it as sport or as a form of humiliation or reduction. There's a wide gamut that can be implied depending on its participants. In my personal experience it has been primarily a tool to combat resistance, cultivate humbling, helplessness, and strengthen mental and emotional dependency. Namaste, ~porcelaine

JohnWarren -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 4:21:55 PM)
As I do it, the purpose is very simple. Some people like to get off on fear. To create fear you either have to have danger or the perception of danger. Danger carries the risk of being injured. The mindfuck is designed to create the perception of fear without the concomitant risk. Back when I was traveling around the country doing lectures and demos, the mindfuck demo was probably the most requested. They tended to be a bit popular. I recall one that I did at a Black Rose convention where the convention authorities had to station people at the elevators to turn folks back because the audience not only had overfilled the hall but was blocking the corridor outside. A well done mindfuck does depend on suspension of disbelief on the part of the submissive, but a good dominant can create conditions where that is relatively easy.

agirl -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 4:24:10 PM)
As I said..........to be a mind fuck it has to be believable. M wouldn't pretend to shit on me! So hardly a mind-fuck if he plopped choc-bar on me. Boo hoo , he pooed on me...and I was so unprepared. agirl

DesFIP -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 4:24:44 PM)
I'm with Jeff. I'd view the first as him breaking a hard limit since he's promised never to do any blood play. And the second also since we're monogamous. I'd begin to believe that he did want to do all these things he just pretended to do, and would have trouble believing him when he assured me he didn't. If I were more confident, then I wouldn't fall for it because they are breaking hard limits and I trust him not to do so. Either way, for us, these would cause me to doubt him and I would pull back, not wanting to be vulnerable to someone I couldn't trust.

JohnWarren -> RE: mind fucks (3/21/2011 4:26:47 PM)
I never lie. Is it my fault that the submissive assumes that the neck of the mason jar she feels on her breast is the same one she saw before I put on the blindfold... or that the little flying things bumping into her nipple are the wasps that were in that bottle? Can I help it that the submissive doesn't notice that she's actually chained to a siding and the approaching freight train is on the main line about ten feet further on? I'm innocent I tell you... innocent.

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