RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


FatDomDaddy -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/23/2011 4:31:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

He also stated, in the same interview, that he, as President, could not ignore the human right treaties that were signed.

And, if Im not mistaken, that was the whole point of being asked to help Libya.


So why is he ignoring them in other places?






slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/23/2011 5:40:31 PM)

So he is wrong for aid in this case....because he doesn't commit us to aid in all cases.
Gotcha,that would be the Fat Dom Daddy Doctrine I would guess.




TheHeretic -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/23/2011 7:10:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

He's the one that promised a different standard, not me.




What this underlines, Fats, is just what a clueless wonder he was during the campaign, and just how low and slow his learning curve has been in office. Time and again he comes face to face with the realities, and discovers that not only does he lack the courage of his convictions, but that his convictions were based on a bunch of wrong-headed assumptions to begin with.

God help us all, as the consequences of his foolishness come back around.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/23/2011 8:03:28 PM)

Well one does think differently when they are King after all.






truckinslave -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/24/2011 7:55:35 AM)

quote:

Constitutionally, the President...Truman, Dubya, Obama...has the right to wage war with or without Congressional approval.


I too believe there are serious constitutional questions about the War Powers Act.




Moonhead -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military At (3/24/2011 7:58:08 AM)

Is this something you believed back in '03, or another example of Republican flipflopping since the Kenyan got elected?




truckinslave -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/24/2011 7:58:18 AM)

quote:

President, could not ignore the human right treaties that were signed.


We have a signed "human rights treaty". With Libya.
Who besides you (and 0bama0 [:D]) knew this?




RacerJim -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/24/2011 9:35:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack’


Unilaterally ... done or undertaken by one person.

I do not believe he, in any way, changed his mind.

Unilaterally ... done or undertaken by the President alone (without Congressional approval).

You do not believe he, in any way, has ever done anything illegal.


In this case, he hasnt.

He notified Congress, per the Wars Power Act.

He didnt "act" unilaterally... there are other countries involved, or did you forget Britian and France?

Unitalerally... done or undertaken by one person.

The definition doesnt fit.

[8|]

Put your racism aside, jim.


War Powers Act/Resolution, Sec. 2.

(a) It is the purpose of this joint resolution to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the president will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circum stances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.

(b) Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

(c) The constitutional powers of the president as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.

Obama may well have notified Congress but Congress neither (1) declared war or (2) issued specific statutory authority, and (3) there was no national emergency created by an attack (by Libya) upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.

Obama did in fact act unilaterally in complete, total and utter disregard for (a) above, to wit: "It is the purpose of this joint resolution to...insure that the collective judgement of both the Congress and the president will apply..."

"collective judgement"...not done or undertaken by one person.

Remove your rose-colored glasses, tazzy.




mnottertail -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/24/2011 9:47:20 AM)

What the fuck section 2?

the war powers goes like this

50 U.S.C. 1541–1548

That  looks like 1541, but you need to read the whole statute, that is purpose and scope only........


1542. The President in every possible instance shall consult with Congress before introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and after every such introduction shall consult regularly with the Congress until United States Armed Forces are no longer engaged in hostilities or have been removed from such situations.  

And here's the one that fucks the shithouse lawyers:

1543. Reporting requirement

(a) Written report; time of submission; circumstances necessitating submission; information reported
In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced— (1) into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances; (2) into the territory, airspace or waters of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat, except for deployments which relate solely to supply, replacement, repair, or training of such forces; or (3) in numbers which substantially enlarge United States Armed Forces equipped for combat already located in a foreign nation;
the President shall submit within 48 hours to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate a report, in writing, setting forth— (A) the circumstances necessitating the introduction of United States Armed Forces; (B) the constitutional and legislative authority under which such introduction took place; and (C) the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement. (b) Other information reported
The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and to the use of United States Armed Forces abroad. (c) Periodic reports; semiannual requirement
Whenever United States Armed Forces are introduced into hostilities or into any situation described in subsection (a) of this section, the President shall, so long as such armed forces continue to be engaged in such hostilities or situation, report to the Congress periodically on the status of such hostilities or situation as well as on the scope and duration of such hostilities or situation, but in no event shall he report to the Congress less often than once every six months.




tazzygirl -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/24/2011 3:05:27 PM)

quote:

Remove your rose-colored glasses, tazzy.


I would rather have rose colored one's than glasses that only see white.

As far as your post, I do believe Master Ron took care of what would have been my rebuttal.




popeye1250 -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/24/2011 6:12:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

President, could not ignore the human right treaties that were signed.


We have a signed "human rights treaty". With Libya.
Who besides you (and 0bama0 [:D]) knew this?



Truckin', my congressman's staffer didn't know *anything* about any "human rights" treaty with Libya when I called the other day!
What, everytime they say "human rights" we're supposed to jump up and get onboard with whatever Exon-Mobil wants the White House to do? Ah,.....I don't think so!
I'm not here to be handing out "human rights" to people in foreign countries who I couldn't care less about.
I'm sitting here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and somehow *I'm* responsable for someone's "human rights" 8,000 miles away? Perhaps my government forgot to send me that memo?




tazzygirl -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/25/2011 9:04:34 AM)

quote:

Truckin', my congressman's staffer didn't know *anything* about any "human rights" treaty with Libya when I called the other day!


The treaties are with the UN. I suggest calling your "congressman" back and telling him to brush up on UN treaties.

The first UN treaty on human rights which the U.S. ratified was the Genocide Convention. This treaty commits the United States to oppose mass murder or attempts at mass extirpation, if the mass murder is directed against racial or religious minorities. After World War II, the United States tried to change the definition of genocide so as to include the mass murder of political opponents, but Stalin's Soviet Union blocked this definitional change. After the treaty was finished in 1948, the United States did not ratify it at once due to concerns over national sovereignty. When the treaty was finally ratified in 1988, the Senate attached a "reservation" (a unilateral modification of a treaty) declaring that, in a departure from the treaty, the U.S. would not accept, except on a case-by-case basis, the jurisdiction of the World Court in genocide cases (the U.S. at the time was angry at the World Court's decision against America in a case brought by Nicaragua). Thus, we won't let the World Court hear genocide charges against this country in the absense of specific agreements allowing such consideration.

Another UN human rights instrument ratified by the United States (in 1992) is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which protects many of the liberties which we associate with the Bill of Rights, as well as guaranteeing racial and sex equality. The Covenant also requires the suppression of war propaganda and incitement to racial discrimination, but a reservation attached to our ratification indicates that we will not do anything against the First Amendment in dealing with such propaganda. Another reservation reserves the right of the United States to execute anyone it wishes, regardless of restraints placed on capital punishment in the Covenant, such as the 18-year-old minimum age for execution. The Senate graciously agreed, however, not to execute pregnant women (the pro-life lobby may have been at work here, or maybe it was the pro-choicers supporting the right of women on death row to carry their children to term).

Of interest is the Second Optional Protocol to the Civil and Political Rights Covenant. This Protocol abolishes the death penalty, except possibly in certain wartime cases. The United States will probably ratify this treaty within a couple of years...after Hell freezes over.


The United States has also ratified the UN Convention Against Torture. This Convention prohibits torture-something already done by the Civil and Political Rights treaty, and the Convention also makes the extradition of torturers easier.

Finally, the United States has ratified the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. This was in 1994, and I can see how Senators wouldn't want to vote against anything which denounced racial discrimination. The fact is, however, that this treaty is fairly redundant, in that it covers pretty much the same ground as the Civil and Political Rights treaty (which contains anti-discrimination clauses) and the U. S. civil rights laws. Sections of the treaty which forbid racist expression are counterbalanced by a U. S. reservation preserving First Amendment rights.


The Senate, in ratifying the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, declared that the operative paragraphs of the Covenant were not self-executing. This means that, until Congress passes implementing legislation, the courts cannot enforce the rights listed in the treaty unless those rights are already protected by the Constitution or by statute. The Senate attached similar reservations when it ratified the race discrimination treaty and the torture treaty.


There's a little problem here. Article VI of the Constitution declares that treaties made under the authority of the United States are "the supreme law of the land" and binding on state courts. The Fourteenth Amendment declares that no state shall deprive anyone of life, liberty or property without due process of law (the Fifth Amendment contains a similar restriction with respect to the federal government). The meaning of the phrase "due process of law" has been hotly disputed, but pretty much everyone agrees that "due process" includes the requirement in the Magna Carta that anytime the government tries to take away someone's life, liberty or property the government must follow the law of the land, and the law of the land specifically includes treaties. Thus, insofar as the human rights treaties ratified by the Senate protect individual rights from abuse at the hand of the state courts, due process requires that the state courts comply with these treaties.

http://www.essortment.com/human-rights-article-human-rights-treaties-39681.html

You can read the rest there.




slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/25/2011 9:38:48 AM)

Wait,you actually think he "read" the parts you posted?
Tazzy your faith is a wondrous thing




mnottertail -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/25/2011 9:49:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

President, could not ignore the human right treaties that were signed.


We have a signed "human rights treaty". With Libya.
Who besides you (and 0bama0 [:D]) knew this?



Truckin', my congressman's staffer didn't know *anything* about any "human rights" treaty with Libya when I called the other day!
What, everytime they say "human rights" we're supposed to jump up and get onboard with whatever Exon-Mobil wants the White House to do? Ah,.....I don't think so!
I'm not here to be handing out "human rights" to people in foreign countries who I couldn't care less about.
I'm sitting here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and somehow *I'm* responsable for someone's "human rights" 8,000 miles away? Perhaps my government forgot to send me that memo?


They wouldn't bother sending you a memo you were incapable of understanding.

Tim Scott's staffer?  I assume you called the US Congressman, since Jim Clyburne wouldn't by constitution have a fuckin thing to do with US Treaties.

Now, since Scott is a republican, it is no wonder that his office is not in possession of facts.  




tazzygirl -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/25/2011 10:28:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wait,you actually think he "read" the parts you posted?
Tazzy your faith is a wondrous thing



I do try... I am a hopeless romantic when it comes to such things.




TheHeretic -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/27/2011 9:26:49 AM)

FR

Dragging this back towards the topic of our President's previously stated principles and values v. how he now conducts the affairs of his office. The interns have been combing the archives and have come up with another beauty.

the American people have a right to know. It is not just Washington insiders that � are part of the debate that has to take place with respect to how we�re going to shift our foreign policy




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/27/2011 9:56:19 AM)

Stop it Tic... how dare you hold the President to his own words!




TheHeretic -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/27/2011 11:32:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
how dare you hold the President to his own words!



Because it's fun to watch, and the weeds in the back yard are still too wet to whack.




slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military Attack (3/27/2011 3:04:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Stop it Tic... how dare you hold the President to his own words!
Nice the way you folks expect that this President should be the first whose actions are at times inconsistent with what was said while running for office.
Some of that can of course be explained simply by dint that governing is a different animal than politicking .
Now that isn't to excuse inconsistencies...just to offer a hint of reality to all the teeth gnashing.
Why oh why is this President held to standards heretofore never before met.
Do I wish he would,in all cases,meet all expectations from all of us...Yeah,I do....but I don't expect it.




Moonhead -> RE: Obama: ‘President Does Not Have Power Under Constitution to Unilaterally Authorize a Military At (3/27/2011 3:08:59 PM)

All the talk of hypocrisy is particularly cute, given the huge number of Republican presidents who've never once compromised an election promise in office. It isn't like Nixon, Ford, Raygun, the literate Bush or the chimp ever told a fib in office, after all....




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875