RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin???

RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 10:15:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Blaming Palin for the actions of a soldier that happened to be from her hometown makes as much sense as blaming me for some dumbass out in a camper in the woods cooking meth. Well, the fact that the person who recently shot up that Congresswoman's press conference had had her in his personal "cross-hairs" for a couple years before Palin's web-site put a "cross-hairs" over her district for the 2010 mid-terms certainly didn't stop lefties from blaming Palin for his actions. What the FUCK has that got to do with anything I said here?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 10:17:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ah, ok, my bad. Rich also mentioned Palin in his OP. I dont see anywhere in the article where they try and pin blame on anyone, besides those already in jail. No worries.

Politesub53 -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 1:41:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I'll be interested to see how the coverage of this plays out. It's far more brutal than anything that came out of Abu Ghraib, but I think it's going to get a lot less attention than the scandal for Bush II. I also think it is very telling how many stories decide that the first of the soldiers they need to identify, has the same hometown as Sarah Palin. It's better than blaming the guy who is keeping them there, right? Yeah. It's going to be real interesting to watch where this goes. You have got to be kidding. The pictures printed in Der Spiegel, show some soldiers, one who comes from Palins City. No mention of Palin in your link, yet for some reason you wish to make this Palin Vs Obama. I remember starting a thread on this when it first broke, Sept 2009. That was hardly long enough for Obama to be in office and get the troops out in my view. Yet I dont see you blaming the guy who put them there. Why am I not surprised you wish to make this a right left issue, just like others did ( No prizes for guessing who ) when I posted about soldiers keeping body parts.

Aylee -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 5:48:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I'll be interested to see how the coverage of this plays out. It's far more brutal than anything that came out of Abu Ghraib, but I think it's going to get a lot less attention than the scandal for Bush II. I also think it is very telling how many stories decide that the first of the soldiers they need to identify, has the same hometown as Sarah Palin. It's better than blaming the guy who is keeping them there, right? Yeah. It's going to be real interesting to watch where this goes. Brutal? You gotta be kidding me. This stuff is not brutal. Does no one study history anymore? Flaying someone alive is brutal. "Foraging" some family's grain and livestock, raping the women, stabbing the men, and then lighting the place on fire is brutal. Mutilating bodies and keeping the noses and ears is rather disgusting. A trophy photo of the collateral damage of civilians (if they were) is stupid and a likely form of a coping mechanism. But not brutal. It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

slvemike4u -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 5:53:46 PM)
Lee's comment on wars brutality was a quote dealing with the brutality inherent when two armies meet on the field of battle....Lee was not addressing,nor can anyone now take liberties with his words to try to indicate that he encompassed brutality perpetrated against non combatants by rogue elements of an armed force.

TheHeretic -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:07:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic If a repub had been shot, you would have been looking automatically for a leftist dont try to deny it Nonsense, Lucy. Our leftists down here are overwhelmingly either incompetent, or pussies when it comes to that sort of thing. I'd have been looking for a crazy person.

Lucylastic -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:15:40 PM)
Rich I would never put you on the same level as Racer Jim...so you dont count, sorry:)[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

slvemike4u -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:17:00 PM)
I will assume that was said in jest.....you would never make such a sweeping generalization...would you Rich ?

Aylee -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:25:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Lee's comment on wars brutality was a quote dealing with the brutality inherent when two armies meet on the field of battle....Lee was not addressing,nor can anyone now take liberties with his words to try to indicate that he encompassed brutality perpetrated against non combatants by rogue elements of an armed force. Mike, my point was that what happened does not even come close to actual brutality that has happened in war from soldiers or mercenaries unto a civilian population. The quote was to reinforce my comment about "copping mechanism." War has a beauty. But it is horrible. It is awful. Yet, it is often a necessity. When things like this happen and we hear of it, do we feel any sympathy/empathy for the soldier? Perhaps we should. They will live with the knowledge of what has happened for the rest of their lives. You might think about talking to some war vets about that. That and the stupid things they did to relieve the stress. I do not condone it. But I do accept it.

TheHeretic -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:33:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I remember starting a thread on this when it first broke, Sept 2009. Must have been a different incident, Polite, or you have the date wrong. These killings took place in the first half of 2010. The story is back in the news because Morlock just took his plea deal, and Der Spiegel just published their 3 chosen photos from the 4000 in the stack. There are 12 soldiers facing court martial from this platoon. 5 are charged in the murders.

TheHeretic -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:35:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I will assume that was said in jest.....you would never make such a sweeping generalization...would you Rich ? Jokes need at least seed of truth to be funny, Mike. [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/23/2011 6:37:16 PM)
Lee is,to me anyway....the epitome of martial excellence(disregarding his performance at Gettysburg,which most historians today ascribe to suffering the early effects of the heart trouble that killed him shortly after the wars conclusion),if I jumped all over that out of proportion perhaps it was due to the lingering effects of the hero worship I had as a small boy and young man. Perhaps a weak justification for my overreaction ...but it is what it is.Again I'm sorry if I misread and overreacted.[:)]

calamitysandra -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 12:14:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee ... A trophy photo of the collateral damage of civilians (if they were) is stupid and a likely form of a coping mechanism. But not brutal. ... Seems to have been a bit more than collateral damage. At least one of the accused confessed that it was premeditated murder of civilians known to be no danger, planned long in advance. And the mutilation and keeping of body parts thing? Did that too.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 1:04:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I'll be interested to see how the coverage of this plays out. It's far more brutal than anything that came out of Abu Ghraib, but I think it's going to get a lot less attention than the scandal for Bush II. I also think it is very telling how many stories decide that the first of the soldiers they need to identify, has the same hometown as Sarah Palin. It's better than blaming the guy who is keeping them there, right? Yeah. It's going to be real interesting to watch where this goes. Brutal? You gotta be kidding me. This stuff is not brutal. Does no one study history anymore? Flaying someone alive is brutal. "Foraging" some family's grain and livestock, raping the women, stabbing the men, and then lighting the place on fire is brutal. Mutilating bodies and keeping the noses and ears is rather disgusting. A trophy photo of the collateral damage of civilians (if they were) is stupid and a likely form of a coping mechanism. But not brutal. It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee Ahh,... the good ole days of Vietnam. Everyone had "gook" ears and teeth that they yanked out with pliers hanging around their necks and if someone didn't spill the beans they'd take them up in a helo to about a thousand feet and push them out. I believe in torture so there's not much sense in debating the bleeding hearts in here. Who exactly is fighting this war, the Press or the Military? The Press certainly isn't the Military's friend! Respect the enemies corpses after they tried to kill you but you got them first? What kind of "thinking" is that? Hell I'd break their jaw, stuff a grenade in it, pull the pin and hoof it. About one third of the guys on my ship were there to finish out their term after returning from Vietnam. Another third had already been to Vietnam. Their stories would make this stuff fucking child's play! Pussys! And when I got out and met friends at the Legion hall who were in Vietnam I heard the same kinds of stories! Tieing the arms and legs of captured "gooks" to the backs of two bulldozers and pulling them apart. And some things much worse than that that I can't tell you because my cousin who was in the Marines was involved. What do people think war is anyway? They must think there's "refferees" standing around like at a football game or something! There's no fair play in war. It's kill or be killed. Here's how they did it in the S. Pacific in WW2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W6FwoXl624 Making Ass Pyramids and propping up two dead guys together, don't the Boy Scouts have a merit badge for that?

Politesub53 -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 3:53:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee ... A trophy photo of the collateral damage of civilians (if they were) is stupid and a likely form of a coping mechanism. But not brutal. ... Seems to have been a bit more than collateral damage. At least one of the accused confessed that it was premeditated murder of civilians known to be no danger, planned long in advance. And the mutilation and keeping of body parts thing? Did that too. Quoted for truth. How anyone could try and spin murder and mutilation as collateral damage is beyond me.

Politesub53 -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 4:03:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I remember starting a thread on this when it first broke, Sept 2009. Must have been a different incident, Polite, or you have the date wrong. These killings took place in the first half of 2010. The story is back in the news because Morlock just took his plea deal, and Der Spiegel just published their 3 chosen photos from the 4000 in the stack. There are 12 soldiers facing court martial from this platoon. 5 are charged in the murders. Right incident wrong date Rich. My original post was dated 9/9/2010. That said I still dont see the need to make this a left vs right issue. That completely misses the bigger issue at hand. This incident plays right into the hands of Taliban and AQ propoganda machines. It undercuts all the loss of life, injuries and sterling work of allied forces in the area. Ironically in a week when certain areas in Afghanistan have been placed under control of Afghani forces. One question that arises is how did Der Speigel obtain 4,000 photos from US Army investigators.

Politesub53 -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 4:09:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Ahh,... the good ole days of Vietnam. Everyone had "gook" ears and teeth that they yanked out with pliers hanging around their necks and if someone didn't spill the beans they'd take them up in a helo to about a thousand feet and push them out. I believe in torture so there's not much sense in debating the bleeding hearts in here. My Lai must have been a hoot eh ? Anyone who feels murdering innocent civillians is "The good ole days" is sick in the head.

truckinslave -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 5:29:26 AM)
quote: General Miller who implemented torture at the order of GWB while at Gitmo was transferred to Iraq and placed in charge of Abu Ghraib. Torture and mistreatment of prisoners began after he took command. The Taguba Report, the official army investigation of Abu Ghraib, blamed Miller as well as other individuals in the Chain of Command for what happened at the prison. You are, I suppose, using "torture" to mean the enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding etc in use at the time, not the hazing and threatening done by the enlisted guards? Do you recognize the difference between "blamed Miller" (as in, "it happened on his watch") and "was at the very least approved by the chain of command"? Are you unaware that those convicted of abuse (Englund et al could doubtless have received reduced sentences had they "ratted out" those above them in the C of C who "at the very least approved" of their actions? Are you aware of any attempt by them to do so? At trial? Later, in interviews, or whatever? Can you offer a plausible motive for their refusal to gain their freedom by turning in those actually responsible for the policy/actions? Are you aware that instead they steadfastly denied that those above them in the C of C denied any knowledge of their actions? You provided a link to a document that offers no accusation that Miller and others in the C of C "at the very least approved" of the unlawful actions of their subordinates. If they could have proven it, imo Miller would be making little ones out of big ones, and I assure you that every CID and fellow MPI that I ever knew would have far preferred to bust those at the top than the bottom.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 5:34:26 AM)
What I particularly enjoy is people blaming the person fixing the problem as creating the problem........Lest ye forget dubya got us there, kept us there, and created the problem. Obama is trying to fix the problem. Not fast enough for anyone and with some decisions that can be questioned. But, no doubt, he is not to blame.

truckinslave -> RE: Blame Pres. Obama, or Palin??? (3/24/2011 5:43:18 AM)
I don't think you can find where I tried to blame 0bama0 for these actions. Blaming Bush is imo equally stupid. The men who fired the shots are the ones responsible. The responsibilities of command are not limitless.

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