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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/25/2011 8:17:34 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Have you heard the one where a US President can proclaim that a Middle Eastern dictator "must go" repeatedly, and then uses our military forces to attack that dictator's forces inside his own country - in conjunction with our allies - but we don't have a policy of "regime change"?

Orwell was prescient.

Firm



Have you heard the one where a certain past president declared we could wage preemptive war?

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/25/2011 8:21:43 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Have you heard the one where a certain past president declared we could wage preemptive war?




RML, it seems to me like you are arguing that President Obama is just like Bush. Could you clarify your remark?

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/25/2011 8:33:36 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Have you heard the one where a certain past president declared we could wage preemptive war?


Just War Theory goes back to the Romans.

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/25/2011 8:37:37 PM   
slvemike4u


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Apples and oranges....no matter how you folks try to link the two actions...they are by definition different missions.
But I will give my word of honor...the day this President starts the drums of war rolling by directing,by inference or direction,the intelligence community to create out of thin air false information concerning WMD...I will join with you all in decrying his war mongering actions.
Till than I,for one,will hope for the best possible outcome to the current difficulties while ignoring the shrill whiny voices  seeking to make political hay out of a humanitarian mission.


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Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/25/2011 11:40:49 PM   
tweakabelle


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It's almost like there's a sense of personal loss underwriting this carping from the Right. It's like :

We were just getting comfy in front of the TV, Fox was screaming for blood, beer and chips handy, a couple of military hardware reference books open, rubbing our hands together in anticipation of the boys bombing a few towel heads back into the Stone Age when those f***ing libtard pinkos in the UN stuck their noses in where they weren't wanted and took our war away .....

How dare they steal our war and turn it into a UN humanitarian mission? This is Amerika FFS! When there's killing to be done, we f***ing do it. Protecting civilians from genocide my ass - don't they know the whole point of an NFZ is an excuse for a turkey shoot while we knock off that a***hole towelhead numero uno Ghad-whathisf***ingname?

Hey I was running a book on regime change ....... that f***ing UN's gonna cost me good money! Gimme back my war! I want my f***ing war back you libtard bastards!

So sorry for you guys, guess you could always watch a few re-runs of your favourite snuff videos and burn a few Korans to console yourselves.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/25/2011 11:47:13 PM >


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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 2:58:31 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


LMAO We havent had a discussion about the UN mandate



Not in your mind we havent. Have you even had a cursory read of the mandate ? No, I didnt think so. Then again facts hardly matter to you and pops when its a chance to knock the President, do they.

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 3:09:32 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I see.  So it is revisionist history even though I personally recall these issues being brought up prior to our invasion.  Got it.



Interesting that you can remember so much detail. Are you sure you didnt google George Bush`s archives ? Seems to me you have quoted much of it word for word, and we all know he didnt make stuff up.

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 3:11:13 AM   
Politesub53


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Seems to me the right have got some sort of fixation on the words "No fly zone" without reading the actual details in the UN mandate. Nothing to do with trying to make GWB look good is it guys ?

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 6:47:35 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

We don't have very much air military that is accurate, carpet destruction is our modus operandi.  

It's gotten better since you were in, Ron.

Firm



Someone should inform the General Staff, if one read the article, that was the idea behind the planes they are talking about now.

Way before I was in, our planes had equipment that would allow us to read the brand of a cigarette butt from 26,000 feet.

There was no equipment that we possessed that would control the trajectory of napalm bags tumbling thru the bamboo.

These things we are lobbing shit from are pumpkin slingers.

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 7:46:32 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I see.  So it is revisionist history even though I personally recall these issues being brought up prior to our invasion.  Got it.



Interesting that you can remember so much detail. Are you sure you didnt google George Bush`s archives ? Seems to me you have quoted much of it word for word, and we all know he didnt make stuff up.


Sorry... I didn't mean to imply that I personally recalled every bit of that detail.  Yes, I did post much of what is contained in White House archives.  Of course, you can comfort yourself with the idea that every bit of it was made up by Bush... confident that his prevarications are supported by the UN Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution, the Human Rights Alliance, and other organizations.  They were all in on his conspiracy.

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 8:03:27 AM   
mnottertail


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And these sorts of things did and are happening in many countries since christ was a corporal, so as a pretense for invasion of Iraq after the fact, it is pretty fuckin weak.

Seems like swimming a shit river and swallowing a turd at every stroke to find justification.

So, it would seem that one who believes this sort of pablum could effectively argue why Iraq instead of China, Haiti, Uganda, Libya, Tibet, Burma, Saudia Arabia, and a plethora of others, or the entire argument in that vein could conceivably be viewed as specious and disingenous by your average news reader, history reader, and joe six-pack. 

Hey, even something ideological along the lines of:

If you could drain your nation's blood and treasure for the next 10-20 years and fuck it away on a very lost cause from the outset, where on earth would it be? 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/26/2011 8:16:28 AM >


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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 8:48:09 AM   
Sanity


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Not anywhere we havent, so youre hardly the one to be lobbing character attacks such as these.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


LMAO We havent had a discussion about the UN mandate



Not in your mind we havent. Have you even had a cursory read of the mandate ? No, I didnt think so. Then again facts hardly matter to you and pops when its a chance to knock the President, do they.


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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 9:21:09 AM   
mnottertail


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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/17/un-security-council-resolution

Theres the full text out of the Guardian.  Ain't something you are likely to see in an American paper. And it ain't ever so likely that americans will read it in any great number here.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/26/2011 9:30:49 AM >


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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 10:32:35 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Not anywhere we havent, so youre hardly the one to be lobbing character attacks such as these.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


LMAO We havent had a discussion about the UN mandate



Not in your mind we havent. Have you even had a cursory read of the mandate ? No, I didnt think so. Then again facts hardly matter to you and pops when its a chance to knock the President, do they.


I posted a copy of the UN mandate here the day it was passed.

The link was to The Guardian the UK newspaper, which published it in full.

The same link as mnottertail has posted above, in fact.

Time for a more creative excuse perhaps?

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 10:46:43 AM   
Sanity


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Youre missing the context of the thread. "polite" sub was insinuating that he had explained the UN mandate to me repeatedly, which is a lie.


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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 10:52:50 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Are any of you guys listening to the reports coming from Libya....do any of the atrocities occurring affect your opinions at all?


I wonder if these would...
  • used rape and sexual assault in a systematic and institutionalized manner for political purposes.
  • executed dozens of women accused of prostitution.
  • tortured to death the mother of three defectors for her children's opposition activities.
  • decapitated numerous women and men in front of their family members.
  • routinely and systematically torture detainees.
  • According to former prisoners, torture techniques included branding, electric shocks administered to the genitals and other areas, beating, pulling out of fingernails, burning with hot irons and blowtorches, suspension from rotating ceiling fans, dripping acid on the skin, rape, breaking of limbs, denial of food and water, extended solitary confinement in dark and extremely small compartments, and threats to rape or otherwise harm family members and relatives. Evidence of such torture often was apparent when security forces returned the mutilated bodies of torture victims to their families.
  • other detainees have been held without charge for close to two decades in extremely harsh conditions, and many of them have been used as subjects in illegal experimental chemical and biological weapons programs.
  • introduced tongue amputation as a punishment for persons who criticize
  • Refugees fleeing to Europe often reported instances of torture to receiving governments, and displayed scars and mutilations to substantiate their claims.
  • systematic and routine use of torture against suspected political opponents and, occasionally, other prisoners. Amnesty International also reports "Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out."
  • had executed at least 1,500 people during the previous year for political reasons.
  • execute summarily alleged political opponents and leaders... Reports suggest that persons were executed merely because of their association with an opposition group or as part of a continuing effort to reduce prison populations.
  • reports that families are made to pay for the cost of executions.
  • held 3-week training courses in weapons use, hand-to-hand fighting, rappelling from helicopters, and infantry tactics for children between 10 and 15 years of age.  ... children held up under the "physical and psychological strain" of training that lasted for as long as 14 hours each day.   ... Families reportedly were threatened with the loss of their food ration cards if they refused to enroll their children in the course.
  • announces food ration cuts for the general population, blaming US or UK actions.
  • Child labor persists and there are instances of forced labor.
  • reports that food and medicine that could have been made available to the general public, including children, have been stockpiled in warehouses or diverted for the personal use of some government officials.
  • has the world's worst record for numbers of persons who have disappeared or remain unaccounted for.
  • remains the country with the highest number of disappearances known to the UN: over 16,000.
  • does not permit freedom of speech or of the press, and does not tolerate political dissent in areas under its control.
  • citizens lived "in a climate of fear," in which whatever they said or did, particularly in the area of politics, involved "the risk of arrest and interrogation by the police or military intelligence."
  • killed more than 500 journalists and other intellectuals in the past decade.
  • ignores constitutional provisions designed to protect the confidentiality of mail, telegraphic correspondence, and telephone conversations.  ... jams news broadcasts from outside the country, including those of opposition groups.
  • own all print and broadcast media, and operate them as propaganda outlets. They generally do not report opposing points of view that are expressed either domestically or abroad.
  • jams foreign news broadcasts. Satellite dishes, modems, and fax machines are banned
  • In government-operated Internet cafes, users only are permitted to view web sites provided by the Ministry of Culture and Information.
  • Relatives who do not report deserters may lose their ration cards for purchasing government-controlled food supplies, be evicted from their residences, or face the arrest of other family members.
  • consistently politicizes and interferes with religious pilgrimages ... conducted a brutal campaign of murder, summary execution, and protracted arbitrary arrest against the religious leaders and followers
Well... they did affect peoples' opinions at one time.   Seems memories are short.



Seems that the Middle East has a common theme.......aye?

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 11:00:47 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Mike, why participate and persist in the falsehood that this is just an innocent "no-fly zone.?" We are sending in AC-130's. Those don't really "do" other aircraft.

This is how they roll. (the mayhem starts at about 4 minutes)


Come on Rich,you are better than this....you must know a NFZ can not be prosecuted without suppressing the air defense capabilities of the intended zone.
Now is that not,by definition, going to be messy...of course it is.Was that not fully disclosed(to those that needed clarification) before hand by Gates ? Sure it was....so why the false "surprise' that there are strikes against ground facilities?


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 11:04:10 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wait.....don't tell me Iraq right?...Why do you folks keep trying to draw these parallels.One is  prosecuting a NFZ...the other was an invasion conducted ostensibly in a hunt for WMD .Claiming humanitarian reasons for that action is just so much bullshit....Revisionist history sucks...please stop, it is extremely distasteful and intellectually dishonest.



I see.  So it is revisionist history even though I personally recall these issues being brought up prior to our invasion.  Got it.

Its revisionist history because you are now claiming it as justification when prior to the invasion it was just an addendum to the search for WMD....the actual stated justification for invasion.
But that didn't pan out....so now Bush is the "great liberator"?



_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 11:09:56 AM   
Sanity


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Video - RAF Tornado jet destroys Libyan tanks

Since when did tanks fly, or shoot down aircraft?



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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Pentagon may add more air power in Libya. - 3/26/2011 11:16:23 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Mike, why participate and persist in the falsehood that this is just an innocent "no-fly zone.?" We are sending in AC-130's. Those don't really "do" other aircraft.

This is how they roll. (the mayhem starts at about 4 minutes)





In fairness to the mission, we do have to take out anti-aircraft, command and control and close air support services in order to execute a no fly zone and Spectra Gunships are very capable of eliminating targets (with minimal collateral damage) on the ground from GtA missle safe elevations.

That being said boots on the ground are required for fire direction support and other air mission support activities. And we can't trust locals for this job, tried that in the past and schools as well as hospitals were "mistakenly" targeted and taken out to embarrass us and create a geo political mess. So yes we have AF CCT, PJ's, STS; SEALS, Marine and Army Recon, Groupies as well as other SOCOM Elements doing their duty for God and Country. I also suspect the SAS and French Comandoes are playing their part as well.



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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