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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/29/2011 10:11:34 PM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		With this said, I would like to point out a separate item.  The legal issues and rights that come with a relationship that is legally recognized are very real.   IMO, this is at the real heart of the problem.   A marriage that is recognized by the government provides for additional accommodations with respect to work benefits, access to your loved one during illness, right to file civil suit for loss of your loved one, estate declarations after death, bankruptcy claims, child care, adoption, and much much more.

I really don't care if we call a homosexual union a marriage or call it a civil union, but we should provide them similar legal protections.   The real issue to me is that heterosexual couples who declare marriage are afforded a large number of legal benefits that aren't allowed to anyone else.  


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/29/2011 10:19:38 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
I really don't care if we call a homosexual union a marriage or call it a civil union, but we should provide them similar legal protections.   The real issue to me is that heterosexual couples who declare marriage are afforded a large number of legal benefits that aren't allowed to anyone else.  




I tend to agree, though I would tend to assert that government recognition of marriage should be abolished as opposed to extended to homosexuals. My guiding principal of government is as follows: Stick not they nose into the business of others. If the government doesn't absolutely have to be involved in something, they ought not be. Barring that, though, homosexual couples should be afforded all the same rights as heterosexual ones.


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/29/2011 10:28:52 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I understand your point, but I also work as a paralegal.  There's a ton of legal issues when it comes to a couple who have a lot of their lives woven together.   How does one deal with a partner who makes good money but is driven into bankruptcy by trying to help pay for the medical care of his/her partner?   Who is responsible for a child that is born or adopted once a couple divorces?   Who should be allowed to see a person on their death bed?   When a person dies, who has first claim to their holdings?

These issues and more are pretty straight forward when I'm talking to a married couple.   When it's a gay couple, it usually becomes a legal problem for my clients and it shouldn't be.  The laws are different for a married couple and married couples do have different legal issues than singles.   The real problem is that homosexuals are treated as singles by the law and they shouldn't be.



Edit - I added the last 2 sentences after reading and thinking about it.


< Message edited by Muttling -- 3/29/2011 10:33:41 PM >

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 1:02:31 AM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

I understand your point, but I also work as a paralegal.  There's a ton of legal issues when it comes to a couple who have a lot of their lives woven together.   How does one deal with a partner who makes good money but is driven into bankruptcy by trying to help pay for the medical care of his/her partner?   Who is responsible for a child that is born or adopted once a couple divorces?   Who should be allowed to see a person on their death bed?   When a person dies, who has first claim to their holdings?

These issues and more are pretty straight forward when I'm talking to a married couple.   When it's a gay couple, it usually becomes a legal problem for my clients and it shouldn't be.  The laws are different for a married couple and married couples do have different legal issues than singles.   The real problem is that homosexuals are treated as singles by the law and they shouldn't be.



Edit - I added the last 2 sentences after reading and thinking about it.



All of those financial issues can be dealt with a well-drafted contract. No need for the government to draft one for everyone. All a contractual arrangement would require from the government would be enforcement, which is something they do now for every kind of contract imaginable.

As to the last part, you are correct - if one set (hetero) is going to have legal status, the other (homo) should as well.


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 4:30:46 AM   
0ldhen


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From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

couple may not wish to get married but instead prefer a civil partnership,



Pardon me if I wander in and out of the topic here.

Personally, I think any union between any two or more persons of any combinations of sexes desiring to join in a legally recognized partnership for any reason should be allowed to do so by government.

After all government gives special considerations to those who are legally bound by said square of paper. Rights like tax breaks, the right to make nedical decisions for each other, the right to the progeny of such unions in case of dissolution of the union, the right to be covered by each others health insurance, etc...

That being said I also believe that the forms or ceremony involved in such joining/s should be entirely up to the individual/s who are being joined. Any and all forms of ceremony, handfasting, christian marriage, collaring, what have you, that is accompanied by filling out the legal civil forms should be allowed and recognized.







< Message edited by 0ldhen -- 3/30/2011 5:07:48 AM >

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 9:57:04 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirRussellP
I think you all missed the fact that she didn't say it was to be combined with a marriage but to be a civil ceremony acknowledging the D/s or M/s relationship only.  Though I do suppose that some would want both.

I didn't miss that... nor did a bunch of others. I suspect what we're wondering is if this is supposed to be different in some way to marriage then what is that way specifically. There is zero chance that I would ever vote for legally institutionalized slavery despite desiring such a thing myself.

Insofar as the current status of domestic abuse I agree that it needs some revision but that revision would need to be done very carefully. There are good and compelling reasons why domestic violence is a "mandatory investigate" situation in most jurisdictions.

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 4:22:13 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Insofar as the current status of domestic abuse I agree that it needs some revision but that revision would need to be done very carefully. There are good and compelling reasons why domestic violence is a "mandatory investigate" situation in most jurisdictions.


What are those reasons, precisely? I've never really found anyone who could give me a firm explanation on that.


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 4:33:33 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
What are those reasons, precisely? I've never really found anyone who could give me a firm explanation on that.
It's not complicated. The abused seldom report it and are seldom willing to press charges. Not so much recently but earlier in history there were also a lot of problems with police (all men) doing the wink wink, nudge nudge routine and blowing it off.

In short, as a society we got tired of hearing about battered women and totally failing to impact the problem so we made the required changes. I would not want to undo those changes without some clear understanding that the victims would actually press charges (and remember, in this post I'm talking about real victims, not BDSM masochists).

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 4:39:09 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
What are those reasons, precisely? I've never really found anyone who could give me a firm explanation on that.
It's not complicated. The abused seldom report it and are seldom willing to press charges. Not so much recently but earlier in history there were also a lot of problems with police (all men) doing the wink wink, nudge nudge routine and blowing it off.

In short, as a society we got tired of hearing about battered women and totally failing to impact the problem so we made the required changes. I would not want to undo those changes without some clear understanding that the victims would actually press charges (and remember, in this post I'm talking about real victims, not BDSM masochists).


Shouldn't it be up to them to decide whether they want to accept the situation as it is or have the courts intervene?


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 5:55:46 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
Shouldn't it be up to them to decide whether they want to accept the situation as it is or have the courts intervene?

No.


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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 6:12:27 PM   
Palliata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
Shouldn't it be up to them to decide whether they want to accept the situation as it is or have the courts intervene?

No.



Lol maybe I should rephrase that:

It should be up to them to decide whether they want to accept the situation as it is or have the courts intervene.

My first principal of governance applies: Stick not thy nose into the business of others.


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 6:32:03 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Well OK. Now that you've shown your work I'll show mine.

I have a TON of principles that are way more important than "personal liberty". Your first principle of government would result in zero government since that is the only way to avoid sticking your nose into other's business. In fact, the very purpose of government is exactly that... to stick it's nose in the business of it's citizens.

Here's my legal argument. Domestic Violence is a crime. Even more, it's a crime that pretty much every single american believes ought to be a crime. Why on earth would I not prosecute it when it's found? Originally we found that DA's weren't pursuing the cases so we got new DA's. Then we found that police weren't pursuing the cases so we gave them simple rules to follow "always". We have, quite correctly, ratcheted up the enforcement pressure on a crime which we all agree to be a crime and was in absolutely runaway proportions. Why is that bad?

Now let's discuss honor and fair play. Who do you think picks up the bills for this behavior? The answer is, "me". And because the couple in question is asking me to pay for their antics I get a vote.

But honestly, it's the moral argument that would win the day with me. I'm just NOT ok with men hitting women in the criminal sense... not at all. I'm pretty much against physical assault of any sort but this particular thing is just a no-fly for me. That's not a rational argument. It's a moral one. I'm content with that as a part of my moral code.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 6:32:08 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata
Shouldn't it be up to them to decide whether they want to accept the situation as it is or have the courts intervene?


No, it shouldn't.

Dick and Jane have a fight.  Dick slams Jane around for a while, which prompts Tom to call the police.  The police respond (here's where your tax dollars come in.)  The police see Jane with injuries that need medical attention.  The ambulance gets called and she's taken to the hospital.  It's obvious that a crime has been committed.  Had a stranger on the street beat the shit out of Jane, would you be sitting there asking if it should be ok that Dick can beat the crap out of her and not go to jail?

Let's try your method.  Jane says it's ok for Dick to beat the piss out of her.  How do you know that she's just not scared shitless of what Dick will do to her next?  The nice policeman go away.

Until next week when Dick is beating the crap out of Jane again.  This time, Larry calls the cops.  The cops come again.  This time, Jane's face looks fine, but she's holding her side.  The cops know how Dick and Jane are, so they leave.

Next week, the cops come to Dick and Jane's place because another neighbor calls.  The cops are getting used to the address from going there so much and have a pretty good idea of how it's all going to play out.  Wasted time because Jane won't press charges.  No big deal and no hurry.

When they get there, Jane's dead.  During the investigation, the police find out just how damn scared Jane really was of that Dick.  How he always told her that he would kill her if she ever pressed charges. 

That's why it works like that.


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 6:35:25 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
How do you know that she's just not scared shitless of what Dick will do to her next?

... or even more horrifyingly (and all too commonly) her children.

Nope Palliata. I'm just not OK with this whole setup.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 6:46:00 PM   
Palliata


Posts: 371
Joined: 8/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
How do you know that she's just not scared shitless of what Dick will do to her next?  The nice policeman go away.


I suppose I can see that perspective. If the person is too intimidated to press charges, that's different than if they choose not to, and since it would be hard to distinguish one from the other it does bring up a quandary. Might be best to do things the way they do. Double-edged sword either way, unfortunately.


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 7:24:54 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

Two friends of mine are training for the olympics in london,they are a couple and they live a 24/7 "athletic" lifestyle


my goodness this place is hilarious sometimes.

Greetings,

i see no reason to create a special anything. i'm heterosexual and capable of securing an official to perform a ceremony that i can design according to preference. And i hardly see the idea flying in the U.S.

Namaste,

~porcelaine

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 7:32:44 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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Status: offline 		Hi Porcelaine... *Nervous giggle and hair twirl around index finger*

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 9:07:28 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Hi Porcelaine... *Nervous giggle and hair twirl around index finger*


Show off!


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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 10:50:44 PM   
SAMHAIN09


Posts: 207
Joined: 11/8/2010
Status: offline 		Seeing as how America is called the land of the free I highly doubt it will ever be legalized in America.

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RE: A Civil Collaring Ceremony - Legal recognition for D/s - 3/30/2011 10:59:51 PM   
MaxsBoy


Posts: 766
Status: offline 		I'm having a civil collaring this October.  Don't really see where the debate is with this.

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