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RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 12:30:53 PM   
Aneirin


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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: isoladyboss


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner

Palin might be as awful as Obama but she might be better.



I knew the Tea Party has got nothing to do with regular tea bags.

Statements like this make me wonder what Americans put in their teabags.

*makes mental note to only drink coffee if in the States*



I drink Twinings, you tell me



Twinings is good tea.

Not everyone who drinks tea in the USA is a member of the Tea Party.

These days the worst fascists in US politics are Obama Democrats followed in distant second by the Tea Party fringe.

I don't want to see a Palin Presidency, I'll paraphrase:

a cactus might be as awful as Obama but a cactus might be better.

Anyone but Obama in 2012.




They don't drink tea then ? Aw, and that has scotched my mental picture of the Tea party, a bunch of old gossiping dames in fancy frocks drinking tea out of dainty china with their little finger raised


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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 2:15:24 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
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quote:

ORIGINAL: isoladyboss

Twinings is good tea.

Not everyone who drinks tea in the USA is a member of the Tea Party.

These days the worst fascists in US politics are Obama Democrats followed in distant second by the Tea Party fringe.

I don't want to see a Palin Presidency, I'll paraphrase:

a cactus might be as awful as Obama but a cactus might be better.

Anyone but Obama in 2012.



I was being facetious and overlooked the sensitive ethno-centricity of certain Americans. No offense was intended.

I would hope that nobody would want a Palin presidency because Obama aside, it would make Bush look like a genius. I'm actually mystified as to why anyone would consider her for the White House (apart from perhaps as a tea lady) and why the Republicans aren't putting forward much stronger candidates to challenge Obama in 2012.

Surely there must be better candidates among the former governors, for example such as Halley Barbour, or are there such candidates being considered among the rank and file on the right?

Just curious..


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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 2:22:04 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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Stella,I do hope you know I was only kidding with my "tea" post


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 2:24:12 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Stella,I do hope you know I was only kidding with my "tea" post



Yes I know that..

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 2:26:30 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Surely there must be better candidates among the former governors, for example such as Halley Barbour, or are there such candidates being considered among the rank and file on the right?

Just curious..



Haley Barbour as a better candidate?

He is Palin's twin brother.

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 2:29:10 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Surely there must be better candidates among the former governors, for example such as Halley Barbour, or are there such candidates being considered among the rank and file on the right?

Just curious..



Haley Barbour as a better candidate?

He is Palin's twin brother.



Ah I see. Thanks.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 7:37:09 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I personally believe the world would be a better place without...



This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.

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Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

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Ego sum erus.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 7:48:01 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I personally believe the world would be a better place without...



This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.

hmmmm ... interesting opinion. At least you seem to accept that religion has caused its share of suffering.

It would be nice to see some credible evidence to support this claim. Please provide some.

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 8:13:00 PM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I personally believe the world would be a better place without...

This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.

hmmmm ... interesting opinion. At least you seem to accept that religion has caused its share of suffering.

It would be nice to see some credible evidence to support this claim. Please provide some.

Someone, at one time or another, has completed the sentence "The world would be a better place without __________" as follows:
  • untermenschen (Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Serbs, Russians, Belarussians, Ukranians)
  • bourgeois intellectuals
  • Gays
  • Kurds
  • Armenians
  • freed former African-American slaves
  • ...
Of course, many more examples which don't involve, or don't primarily involve, religion.  I don't know if this makes the case for way more suffering than caused by religion, but there's quite a hefty bit.


< Message edited by eihwaz -- 4/8/2011 8:15:40 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 8:52:02 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.

It would be nice to see some credible evidence to support this claim. Please provide some.

Someone, at one time or another, has completed the sentence "The world would be a better place without __________" as follows:
  • untermenschen (Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Serbs, Russians, Belarussians, Ukranians)
  • bourgeois intellectuals
  • Gays
  • Kurds
  • Armenians
  • freed former African-American slaves
  • ...
Of course, many more examples which don't involve, or don't primarily involve, religion.  I don't know if this makes the case for way more suffering than caused by religion, but there's quite a hefty bit.



Yeppers. And there's also a slight problem about which definition of religion is used. If you go by the Oxford definiton, at its broadest:
[religion] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:*
then Nazism,which accounts for untermenschen above, or even atheistic Marxism as practiced in the USSR and elsewhere now count as a religiously-inspired evils. Both were 'interests followed with great devotion' by their adherents. Such is the flipside of insisting atheism or philosophies like humanism are in fact religions, as is fashionable in certain quarters.

Assuming a consensus can achieved about the definiton, then there's a slight problem with measurement. How might anyone go about accurately measuring such numbers as set out in the original claim?

When those issues are resolved, there's a few more issues about how a sentence might be a causal factor as claimed (rather than say, the thoughts or beliefs that precede/underwrite that sentence) ........ Or how to separate persecution of gays from religiously inspired persecution of gays, which is still carried on by certain religious interests to this day ......
or Jews ... or the role of Christianity in authorising and allowing slavery to prosper for c1500 years .... etc etc

At this point the original claim is starting to look meaningless and unverifiable to me .......

* http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0699400#m_en_gb0699400

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/8/2011 9:32:53 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/8/2011 9:03:14 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I personally believe the world would be a better place without...

This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.

hmmmm ... interesting opinion. At least you seem to accept that religion has caused its share of suffering.

It would be nice to see some credible evidence to support this claim. Please provide some.

Someone, at one time or another, has completed the sentence "The world would be a better place without __________" as follows:
  • untermenschen (Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Serbs, Russians, Belarussians, Ukranians)
  • bourgeois intellectuals
  • Gays
  • Kurds
  • Armenians
  • freed former African-American slaves
  • ...
Of course, many more examples which don't involve, or don't primarily involve, religion.  I don't know if this makes the case for way more suffering than caused by religion, but there's quite a hefty bit.



You made my point for me.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to eihwaz)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 4:40:22 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
me too


Although, I wasn't kidding about Twining s, that really is my favorite


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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 4:43:56 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I personally believe the world would be a better place without...

This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.

hmmmm ... interesting opinion. At least you seem to accept that religion has caused its share of suffering.

It would be nice to see some credible evidence to support this claim. Please provide some.

Someone, at one time or another, has completed the sentence "The world would be a better place without __________" as follows:
  • untermenschen (Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Serbs, Russians, Belarussians, Ukranians)
  • bourgeois intellectuals
  • Gays
  • Kurds
  • Armenians
  • freed former African-American slaves
  • ...
Of course, many more examples which don't involve, or don't primarily involve, religion.  I don't know if this makes the case for way more suffering than caused by religion, but there's quite a hefty bit.



You made my point for me.


Yes, but apparently it was missed by another poster who will now regale us all with definitions that have nothing to do with the fact that your post was pretty accurate.


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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 5:32:19 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Blacksword
This sentence alone has caused way more suffering than you can lay at the feet of religion. By the time people get around to letting this leave their lips, they are close to taking evil actions.


Can I remind you guys that the above is the claim that is at issue here? I have bolded the operative part for you as you all seem to be missing it (or ignoring it).

They do say the pen is mightier than the sword but who'd have ever guessed a little sentence could be this murderous? Just a little bit silly don't you think?

Sentences do kill people in novels.

Novels are pure fiction.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/9/2011 5:49:04 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 5:43:40 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I personally believe the world would be a better place without...


This is the statement in question.

quote:

This sentence alone has caused way more suffering


quote:

They do say the pen is mightier than the sword but who'd have ever guessed a little sentence could be this murderous? Just a little bit silly don't you think?


I dont see anyone defending it. I do see people saying its true. While you see it as just words, every action begins with a belief. To believe the world would be a better place with _______ ... is just someone one step from justifying their actions to make those words a reality.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 6:34:21 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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Thanks for re-stating my point for me tazzy. If you check out post #110 you find me arguing that beliefs motivate many of the killings eihwaz listed. Many of those beliefs can be classified according to definition offered, as religious. I then list some further difficulties in quantifying the numbers and making accurate attributions as to the precise influences.

Thanks again. It was kind of you but quite unnecessary.

This derailing has gone on long enough. Isn't it about time someone said something vaguely related to the OP?

Does any one here really feel that their sexual rights would be safe under a Palin administration?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/9/2011 6:43:43 AM >


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RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 7:35:19 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Ah so you decide to join the derail, and believe... lol... gotta love that word... that because YOU decide the derail has gone on long enough, its over.

Naaaa... dont think so.

quote:

Many of those beliefs can be classified according to definition offered, as religious.


Which is the only definition you look for. Demonizing one group because you dont agree with its tennets is bigotry. And Im beginning to see you as such. You tend to paint everything with the same brush. But as many have pointed out, you are missing the point when you do so because your dislike for religion is that strong.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 7:44:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Yeppers. And there's also a slight problem about which definition of religion is used. If you go by the Oxford definiton, at its broadest:
[religion] a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion:*


Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many belief systems which most agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, suggesting that just about any and everything is a religion.

A good example of a narrow definition is the common attempt to define “religion” as “belief in God,” effectively excluding polytheistic religions and atheistic religions while including theists who have no religious belief system. A good example of a vague definition is the tendency to define religion as “worldview” — but how can every worldview qualify as a religion?

Some have argued that religion isn’t hard to define and the plethora of conflicting definitions is evidence of how easy it really is. The problem lies in finding a definition that is empirically useful and empirically testable. So far, the best definition of religion I have seen is in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It lists traits of religions rather than declaring religion to be one thing or another, arguing that the more markers present in a belief system, the more”religious like” it is:

•Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
•A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
•Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
•A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
•Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.
•Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
•A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
•A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
•A social group bound together by the above.

This definition captures much of what religion is across diverse cultures. It includes sociological, psychological, and historical factors and allows for broader gray areas in the concept of religion. It’s not without flaws, though. The first marker, for example, is about “supernatural beings” and gives “gods” as an example, but thereafter only gods are mentioned. Even the concept of “supernatural beings” is a bit too specific; Mircea Eliade defined religion in reference to a focus on “the sacred” and that is a good replacement for “supernatural beings” because not every religion revolves around the supernatural.

A better definition is:

•Belief in something sacred (for example, gods or other supernatural beings).
•A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
•Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
•A moral code believed to have a sacred or supernatural basis.
•Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual.
•Prayer and other forms of communication with the supernatural.
•A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
•A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
•A social group bound together by the above.

This is the definition of religion used here. It describes religious systems but not non-religious systems. It encompasses the features common in belief systems generally acknowledged as religions without focusing on specific characteristics unique to just a few.


http://atheism.about.com/od/religiondefinition/a/definition.htm

I really like Cline. And go figure, he is an atheist.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 9:07:26 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
Let me recap just to make sure I have read this thread right so far. tweakabelle said the statement was incorrect, tazzy came along and said no she thought it was true, so now tweaky is thanking tazzy for not agreeing with her?


I would go back and try to figure it out but 42cfr is calling to me and I can't put it off any longer.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 4/9/2011 9:08:15 AM >


_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community... - 4/9/2011 5:59:37 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

This notion of "the sacred" is an interesting one. That which is sacred is something "set apart" (ME sacren, to consecrate) from what by definition is therefore not sacred, i.e., "the profane". And in my view, it has nothing properly to do with religion.

In Buddhism, for example, nothing is separate. Samsara is Nirvana. The goal is realization. In Taoism, Yin and Yang are depicted within a circle, different expressions of the same underlying and all-encompassing unity. In Shaivism, Shiva and Shakti are one. In Vaishnavism we find Krishna saying, "I am the same in all beings." And the Upanishads are unreservedly Monistic. All is one. Tat twam asi.

The notion of a "broken" wholeness, of sacred and profane knowledge, and of a humanity divided between a holy people, set apart, and everybody else, is the pernicious fruit of false priests pronouncing tribal historiography and myth to be divine fact.

Frankly, as it seems to me, we call our Abrahamic faiths "religions" for no better reason than that they claim to be. In my opinion, no teaching that divides mankind, or sets man apart from nature and the universe, can properly be called religious.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/9/2011 6:02:02 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 120
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