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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 7:03:39 AM   
maybemaybenot


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I spent my youth and early adulthood as a very skinny girl. ( 5'2"/93lbs ) I was often suspected of being anorexic. I ate whatever I pleased and ate lots of it and never gained a pound. That changed in my mid thirties. I started gaining weight slowly, which pleased me as I started to look like a woman, not a boy, and had a shape. I evened out at about 125 lbs, then I got diagnosed with kidney disease. I went on prednisone for 3 years and blew up like a balloon. It was a combination of the drug and over eating in a big way. I think I over ate because I was so depressed about my health and being on prednisone, having no control over the weight gain. During my prednisone years I was also put on cytoxin, a chemotherapy used for breast cancer that is used to treat my kidney disease also. Immediate menopause set in.

During that time, I pretty much gave up on being anything other than fat because the meds prevented me from losing weight, so I ate more. After reaching remission I went on a health, get thin kick and lost most of the 60 lbs I gained. It was tempoary tho, and over the last 10 years I have re gained 40 of those pounds and am overweight. I have no excuses other than I ate way too much. I am a carb o holic and chip a holic. I had conversations with myself weekly that I had to start eating properly and lose weight about every week. I am a person who doesn't like being overweight, never got comfortable with it. But too lazy and too weak willed about it to do anything with real determination. I do think there is an element of depression that goes with my weight gain as I am usually a very determined person. In the 10 years I started regaining weight I lost my cousin in a motorcycle accident- my parents raised my cousin so he was more like my brother, my dominant/life partner died and my Dad died. The three most important males in my life were/are gone in less than 10 years. I worked with therapists on the losses and grieving, but kept eating. The harder part is I got little support when I would and do say I am fat or overweight. I was blessed with being able to " hide " my weight and people think I am much smaller than my weight indicates, so it was easy, so to speak, to say I could carry on as I was.

Two weeks ago I had a pre employment physical and I have been diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes. Absolutely no surprise. But it has given me an absolute conviction to lose 40-50 lbs and to eat properly and excercise. I cleaned out my cupboards of all junk food, restocked with appropriate foods, I walk a mile a day, which I will increase as I go along. It's week 2 since being diagnosed and I have lost 8 lbs.

My advice to you JAS and any others is to try and find a way to get closer to a good weight before the medical issues settle in. Like you guys I knew the risks and didn't change my eating behaviors. When they told me I had diabetes it was like someone hit me with a stun gun, my mindset immediately changed. I don't expect to be a skinny minny again, but I do expect to have an average/acceptable weight.

Good luck to all of you who struggle with it, and to me too. It certainly isn't an easy task.

mbmbn

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 9:25:07 AM   
ranja


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

ETA the reason i got fat is 'cos i ate too much and did too little





Except for folks who have some medical condition or take meds that cause them to become obese, that is probably the reason most are fat.

There is more to it though.  That is what I am trying to grasp.  It is more than shit luck that caused me and two half sisters to become obese within a year of giving birth to our first child, one at 15, one at 18 and me at 25.

Did we get the same physical genetics as our birth mom, who did the same or did we get the same chemical imbalance in our brains or did we just get a bad case of the inherited lazy ass don't give a damns?

I am strong in every regard of my life, except food.  That is what I am trying to figure out the reasons for.

Congrats on finding what worked for you.  I am hoping to find the same in the near future.


I think (except for some people on meds) that most people here in the west become fat because there is just so much food, it is virtually just falling in our mouths
i think all people are inclined to do whatever their heart desires and i think for most people that is to sit on their butt and watch and eat and drink and smoke nice things

i was always a skinny kid, then i grew massive boobs... then i steadily became fatter and fatter, then i lost it because i was trying to conceive so i made an effort to be fit, then i got pregnant and got totally fat again.
It never showed too much on account of my big boobs
i never saw myself as too fat when i looked in the mirror and i never felt bad about myself, but i knew i was totally overweight though, i couldn't even tie my own shoe laces anymore without great discomfort and painting my toe nails became something i rather pretended i didn't care about anymore. It was time to lose the weight so i lost it.

whatever you do, do not go on one of these contrived diets... as soon as the diet stops you will gain the weight again.
Also make it a very long term plan... and enjoy it: it feels good to take control

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 9:33:40 AM   
DesFIP


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To Maybe:, the problem with throwing away all the junk food is that eventually you are going to feel deprived. I don't buy chips for the house. But if I buy a sandwich at a deli, I have no problem getting a little individual bag of chips once every couple of weeks. Same with ice cream, I'm not eating it at home but occasionally I go out and buy a scoop. This way I don't feel sad, I just say that I don't feel like making a special trip for it tonight.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 4/7/2011 9:37:49 AM >


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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 9:47:23 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I have noticed that many morbidly obese women have been sexually abused.

I developed a weight issue later in life.

I was a thin youth and a thin young adult who could eat a lot and not gain weight.

I began to gain weight right after I was 21...slowly at first.

I had been raped in H.S.

The past year i have lost 42 lbs.
Part of it was related to being on Topamax for migraine prevention...and perhaps Wellbutrin as well, but the weight came off much faster after the Topamax.

Due the the weight loss, I have had a reversal in my type II diabetes. I was on insulin and now without insulin or any other medication my A1c is at "pre-diabetic" levels.

While I avoid binging on carbs I eat pretty normally.

I like the weight loss but it is a worry.

It is so easy to gain it back and I am not entirely comfortable in my thinner body.

The difficulty with eating disorders and food addictions is that you have to eat.

Different foods can triggers binging in different people.

hot DAMN angelika. good job.


Thank you!

My Master was happy with the changes but was always concerned that the weightloss did not come at the sacrifice of my health.
In the beginning it was a challenge because I really wasn't hungry and went off insulin at that point.

The next time I saw my doctor I did discuss it with her and she cautiously agreed the risk of being on it was likely higher at that point than the risk of higher sugar levels.
I had it on hand in case I needed it.
My levels never required it.

Then 3 months ago we discussed the possibility of officially getting off of it all together.
My A1C is now lower than it was during my very best control with diet and insulin.

I was first diagnosed 5 years ago.
My A1C was an 11.4.

edit to add:

Now the hard part: continuing to work on the internal landscape and becoming more comfortable with my now thinner self.

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 4/7/2011 9:48:50 AM >


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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 10:35:14 AM   
hlen5


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What a bunch of brave people to come and talk so candidly about such a (usually ) explosive subject.

I had major self-esteem issues before the sexual assaults. Before them I enjoyed my body. After them I FELT morbidly obese (I could have lost 5-10 pounds). I was tacitly blamed for the abuse by my family (I was the invisble child of the family anyway).

After High school, I went on a 500/day diet and lost 25 pounds. After I got off the diet I regained nearly instantly and gained more.

After I joined the military I lost and gained weight. I felt best about myself was when I was in language school, taking Tae Kwon Do. When stationed in Europe, aerobics became popular and I lost the weight.

I've fluctuated since. I need to lose 50-70 pounds right now. I know I should before menopause sets in.

Luckily with that one exception, I have always lost the wt. through exercise (ETA: and eating better).

My body image has fluctuated as much as much as my weight. The times I've felt the best about myself are when I've been exercising consistently and hard.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 4/7/2011 10:59:40 AM >


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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 10:52:44 AM   
LaTigresse


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I just gotta say that menopause is a real motherfucker when it comes to weight and weight loss. In all seriousness, if I had eaten, and exercised, in my 20's and 30's like I do now, I would have been horribly underweight. 

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 10:59:22 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Those feelings are no stronger at 250 pounds than they were at 135.  They are the same, even though the body really is now fat and disgusting.



I applaud you for your self-examination and it is a most complicated issue for many. I left your comment above in because I want to comment on it. I read the book Women, Food and God that someone mentioned and it is a very good one (out of the many annoying ones out there) simply because it addresses something that many overweight women need to learn about: treating yourself well. To lose weight, you need to treat yourself well by behaving in a healthy manner, both physically and emotionally. All, easier said than done. But words to embrace, nontheless.

A comment like you wrote above is not productive; in fact, it is completely and totally against the rule, which is to love yourself. Just because you are overweight, does not mean you are disgusting. You are what you think you are and you are if you let other's dictate your self worth.

I do understand your feelings; when I was a plus size model and a size 14/16, I thought I was fat and I only wish I was that size now. I was also not abused in any way.

I also have to lose weight; it has been a lifelong battle and has gotten more difficult during the last few years due to some health issues.

But the one thing that I do NOT believe, is that I am disgusting because I am overweight. I will never feel that way simply because I believe I am beautiful, inside and out, no matter what. If someone views me based on my weight and not the million other things that make me fabulous, then fuck them.

The reasons for losing weight are for my health and my fashion obsession.

So please, do yourself and others a big favor and change your mindset about this. If for no other reason than to stop the the runaway train of thought whereby everyone thinks that every large woman is an unhappy, depressed, self loathing fat chick, because, really, not all of us feel that way.

Take back your self worth and do what you have to do to fix it.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 4/7/2011 11:00:39 AM >

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 11:06:18 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

.........................But the one thing that I do NOT believe, is that I am disgusting because I am overweight. I will never feel that way simply because I believe I am beautiful, inside and out, no matter what. If someone views me based on my weight and not the million other things that make me fabulous, then fuck them.

.....................Take back your self worth and do what you have to do to fix it.


QFT. Great Post!

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 11:26:25 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Yes it was a great post, and the admonition to change the mindset is spot on.

Unfortunately, as with most serious addictions (and I have both a food and a nicotine addiction) it is so easy to say "change your mindset" and yet so very hard to do.

For years I did not know I had both addictions, because the smoking kept the weight down.

When you can change your mindset, you can literally change the world, but that can only be done when you head is ready for it. That takes a serious positive attitude that you are not going to get by putting yourself down b/c you are overweight. Yes, the first rule is to love yourself. That is a very difficult one.

I would say this to anyone with an addiction: work to be healthier, in body and mind. Care enough about yourself to be healthier. Then accept who you are, flaws and all. Do I have the perfectly sculpted body I had when I was 25? Um, no! Okay some would say: hell no!! Gravity and age comes to us all.

Do you know yourself? Are you at peace with yourself?

Work on those two questions. Once the mind is working towards a positive goal, the body will follow.


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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 11:33:24 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

To Maybe:, the problem with throwing away all the junk food is that eventually you are going to feel deprived. I don't buy chips for the house. But if I buy a sandwich at a deli, I have no problem getting a little individual bag of chips once every couple of weeks. Same with ice cream, I'm not eating it at home but occasionally I go out and buy a scoop. This way I don't feel sad, I just say that I don't feel like making a special trip for it tonight.



I already feel deprived !!! lol. I hate to admit this, but my breaskfast for years has been a diet coke and a bag of potato chips. < not the big ones, but the medium ones. still: very bad >

Thank you for the advice. You have CM

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 12:56:30 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Yes it was a great post, and the admonition to change the mindset is spot on.

Unfortunately, as with most serious addictions (and I have both a food and a nicotine addiction) it is so easy to say "change your mindset" and yet so very hard to do.

For years I did not know I had both addictions, because the smoking kept the weight down.

When you can change your mindset, you can literally change the world, but that can only be done when you head is ready for it. That takes a serious positive attitude that you are not going to get by putting yourself down b/c you are overweight. Yes, the first rule is to love yourself. That is a very difficult one.

I would say this to anyone with an addiction: work to be healthier, in body and mind. Care enough about yourself to be healthier. Then accept who you are, flaws and all. Do I have the perfectly sculpted body I had when I was 25? Um, no! Okay some would say: hell no!! Gravity and age comes to us all.

Do you know yourself? Are you at peace with yourself?

Work on those two questions. Once the mind is working towards a positive goal, the body will follow.



QFT! Another great post! (quietly flounces out)

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 2:02:44 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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I will see if this makes sense. I do not hate me, I happen to think I am one of the grooviest chickies around, and my friends agree. Of course, none of them are quite right in the head ;o).

The disgusting remark was trying to explain how I feel no different about my body now than I did when I was a size 14/16. I felt fat then and I feel fat now. I can look at others who are a 16 and realize that is one hot chick. It blows my mind to think that, in my head, I felt as fat then as i do now.

I also have mirrors, and when I take off the blinders, I do see disgusting things in them. I also see the wonderful human being that I am, but.......

I accept gravity. I accept that the lil bluebird tatt I got when I was a teen now is a long legged stork. i accept my long boobs as being handy dandy gadgets for wrapping around things.....yummy.

But, scrunching up my belly and seeing how big it is, and how it looks, it is not attractive.

I hate it when I meet folks and I see that judgement in their eyes. And you can see it. People will avert their eyes from fat folks, just as they will a homeless person. It saddens me because I think it is so unfair that it happens.

But, I have to realize that society as a whole is not going to change. The only way these reactions will change is for me to change my outer shell. And then I think, well fuck them, if they can not like me now, they don't deserve me when I lose the weight....

It is complicated, and I just can't find the proper words right now. The most simple way I can put it is to say I have to get mad at me and disgusted with me in order to make the changes I need to, but I have to find a way to do that without losing my love of self.

Add to that peri menopause and the fact that I just hung up from a damn doctor who told me it will be the end of April before they can do an ultrasound to see why I am slinging chicken livers out of my uterus, I am pretty well a wreck and craving chocolate-lol.

I am loving this thread and the insight yall are giving. Thanks for exposing a bit of your souls. I took a shot in the dark posting about this here, but I should have known that there is a lot of awesomeness here and it would show up.

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 2:05:00 PM   
LaTigresse


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Wine.

It is fat free.


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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 2:05:56 PM   
SorceressJ


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This.. is the most inspiringly positive yet no-BS weight-issue thread I have ever seen around these parts. Before I add to it, I would like each and every one of you to please accept my heartfelt compliments thereto.

I have struggled with weight and esteem issues for most of my life. I turned 44 not quite a month ago. I am chunky but not morbidly obese; I stand about 5'7" and a half in my stocking feet and (I am without a house scale at this time so I'm WAGging this part based on years of realistic self-knowledge and how my clothes are fitting just lately..) am running about 210 at the moment. I have been this tall since about age 12 or so (I was the tall girl in school. I passed 5 ft. and 100 lbs at age 8). I ran about 140 - 150 in high school and thought I was fat then (and that is actually what I would like to get back down to now. I have little if any interest in the weight tables in Dr.'s offices that say I should weigh less than this. I know what's good for ME), although I have a nice smile, pretty eyes and good bone structure and am told that I am very attractive (just the way I am, even).

I am one of the few people I know who has not been raped or molested, neither as a young girl nor an adult. No domestic/spousal issues, either.
I just like to eat. Food rocks.

I was used to flying under life's radar and thinking myself mostly unremarkable (wherein is a portion of my own mistake), as well as thinking it was perfectly acceptable to eat whatever the hell I wanted without repercussions, or ingredient label-reading, or caring where my food comes from or how it is made. In other words, it just didn't matter (wrong!). My mother didn't care, either, only she had no positive perception of herself at all, didn't make any effort on her own behalf nor at family and professional suggestion, and was dead before she was 70, of multiple health problems, weighing in the neighborhood of 300 lbs.

I have no intention of following in those footsteps. None, zero, zip.

In the last year or so, concerns not just about my own health but about food in general have made themselves prominent in my sphere. I saw a movie called "Food Inc." and became painfully conscious about every bite of processed anything that I had ever consumed. Now, the focus in my household is undergoing a serious transformation, to a place which has not yet been fully achieved (but is being worked on and paid attention to daily); where there is no junk food, lunch meat, or processed anything, and all meats and vegetables which are consumed therein have been purchased from local organic growers and providers. No radical diet plans, deprivation or calorie-counting; just common sense, vastly healthier and more natural choices, portion control, Yoga, working outside in our garden, lots of water, and {{{attitude - it really is everything}}}.

..I wish this had shown up over at the Biggest Loser thread. That would have been AWEsome, except of course this thread is not just to address weight-loss per se, but perception of self. Still, I think we are of a mostly common mind and heart about all this; we all want to live and be healthy and happy, which is the very least that we all deserve. To that effect, I send each of you blessings of limitless light and love, and my best wishes for your good health, long life, and perfect happiness..

EDITED for a typo or two..

< Message edited by SorceressJ -- 4/7/2011 2:12:53 PM >


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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 2:42:02 PM   
IceDemeter


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I am a fat chick (current size 16), and have been since childhood. I've also been quite comfortable with myself and my body since I got out of teen-hood (seriously - did anyone like themself as a teen?!?)

I don't know whether it's just that I'm oblivious, but I have very rarely encountered any major abuse / prejudice due to my weight. The one exception is my mother - she means well, but she's convinced that anyone overweight must be harboring horrible feelings of depression / angst / self-hatred and it's taken me years to get her to realize that I'm quite happy with me.

That said, I dropped 80lbs 7 years ago and have kept it off since then. The weight dropped when I started working out for a couple of hours 4 nights per week. I didn't start working out in order to lose weight, get in shape, or even be healthier --- I started in the hopes that the endorphins generated would make me stop crying. This was 2 months after my husband died.

I found that that exercising did work to make me stop crying - it actually allowed me to sleep more than an hour per night - and it just plain made me a happier person. I found that signing up for a variety of different classes was the best way for me to keep going. Having paid for a class made me less likely to miss it (I'm too cheap to pay and not show up!), and having a variety kept me from being bored. I wanted to give myself no excuses to stop, since I was terrified of going back to being exhausted and teary (and likely finding a self-destructive way of dealing with it).

I honestly can't remember the last time that I went on a "diet". I completely lost my appetite after my husband died, and afterwards I didn't have any motivation to do any real meals for just me. I found that I naturally fell in to just listening to my body, and realized that I craved veggies or fruits even more often than I craved treats. I never cleaned the junk out of my house - I still enjoy my junk food (and consider chocolate a required food group) but don't feel the need to gorge on it.

For me, being angry or disgusted with myself doesn't seem to be a motivator for anything (I'm a serious procrastinator, so trust me - I've tried this!). My best motivator is the goal of bringing myself joy. Working out is something that does bring me joy - it centres me, calms me, and gives me time to just let the world go for a while.

Perhaps you might find it easier if you change your focus from having a physical goal (a certain weight or dress-size) to having the goal of adding joy to your life. Try a few different classes (it's handy if it's timed for just after work, on your way home) and see if something resonates for you. Forget about the whole food issue for a while - you may find that a healthier diet just falls in to place once you are feeling happier.

Wishing you all the best

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RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 3:06:57 PM   
angelikaJ


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When I was just 21 the guy i was seeing thought I had heavy hips.
I was 5'5" and weighed under 130.

That made me feel fat and ugly.
I dated him for almost 10 years knowing I would never be perfect.

I gained weight.

I joined Weight-Watchers.
Twice.
The first time I weighed 169.
The second time I weighed 180.

I remember one week doing everything right and gaining 8 lbs and the leader insisting I must have somehow strayed.
I was devastated.

20 years ago or so, I was walking in the city where I worked once and passed 2 older men and overheard them say "Why do the ones with the pretty faces have to have such fat asses?"

Back in 1994 or so I underwent a 'big' weight loss was of my own devising.
It was healthy: high fiber, very low fat and I ate 6 times a day 100-300 cals each and I walked everywhere.
I think I lost 20 lbs.

In 2002 my mother encouraged me to go on Atkins.
I never lost as fast as she did.
She was sure I did it wrong.


Many of you know this story: in 2003 both my parents (long divorced) died 11 days apart.
My doctor was thrilled that I was eating at all and didn't care what.

What I haven't talked about was that I topped the scale in 2004 at 238.
And then a miracle happened.
I kind of lost my appetite and lost 18 pounds.

What I didn't know was that that miracle was type II diabetes.

The Atkins in 2002 hid it.
(They have changed the blood sugar values since).

In 2004 I decided I wanted to have a baby and the guy I was involved with was agreeable.
I ended up needing reproductive surgery and my fasting bloodsugars were ok... .

Because of my age after one IUI cycle we went to IVF.
On March 30, 2005 on the first try I learned I was pregnant.

The heartbeat was slow to appear, and then just at the end of the first trimester there was no more heartbeat.

First-trimester miscarriage is often times a mystery but in my case when I went for an emergency D&C it was then discovered that I in fact had type II diabetes via first a blood glucose thest of 374 and confirmation with the aforementioned A1c.

This was not new and I was very diabetic.
It had just been missed among all the bloodwork that had been done.

Simply put: a pregnancy could not have been viable.
It was a terrible cost for a terrible disease.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Prior to the 42 lbs loss I had been at the same weight for over 4 years.
That in and of itself felt like a triumph.
No doubt following the rules had something to do with it.

The funny thing is that now my doctor thinks a healthy weight for me is between 140 and 150...
what many people would consider to be "fat" or overweight.
She is not unhappy with what I weigh now though.

Last year (25 lbs ago) I was trying on clothes and saw myself au naturale and thought that He could never see me naked again.
An overweight friend commiserated and said "You are never supposed to face the mirror until you are dressed."
When I told Him, he gently chuckled at my thought and responded with: "That would be a terrible shame."

I have not weighed this in probably over 20 years.
Not bad for a peri-menopausal chick with hypothyroidism who turns 49 this year.

I am examining my emotional triggers.
I tend to eat sometimes when I am pissed off.
I eat when I feel vulnerable.
I am sure as I become more self aware I will discover more.

It isn't easy, and I am discovering that I have as complicated an issue with the weightloss as I do with food.

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The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to SorceressJ)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 3:53:47 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
Angelica you brought me to tears. ((((HUGS))))

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 4:03:33 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

..............I accept gravity. I accept that the lil bluebird tatt I got when I was a teen now is a long legged stork.

..........................to see why I am slinging chicken livers out of my uterus, I am pretty well a wreck and craving chocolate-lol.

I am loving this thread and the insight yall are giving. Thanks for exposing a bit of your souls. I took a shot in the dark posting about this here, but I should have known that there is a lot of awesomeness here and it would show up.


I'm loving it too! Good job!

I don't mean to make light of the situation expressed in your phone call, but Damn, that descriptive phrase is funny (the tat one is too!!)!!

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My fave Thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2626198/mpage_1/tm.htm

One time "Phallus Expert Extraordinaire"

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 4:13:18 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
I really am a happy fat chick, just going through some changes-lolol.

Glad to have made you smile.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Will this thread explode? - 4/7/2011 4:15:19 PM   
SorceressJ


Posts: 2968
Joined: 7/24/2010
Status: offline
{{{*JELLIE*}}}
I absolutely adore you, my sister. )O( Do you know that..?

That was a heck of a story, darlin'. Thank you very much for sharing with us..
EDITED to extend love and that Thank You to the rest of you as well. You all deserve it. XO

< Message edited by SorceressJ -- 4/7/2011 4:19:08 PM >


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‎Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc. <93>)O(

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 40
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