RE: self-destructive subs

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uncertainlyizzy -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:27:37 AM)
Of course there are crazy mental health professionals. No matter what you want to think they're human. They do exist outside of your session. They don't just appear to talk about your problems and then disappear into the ether when your 45 minutes are up. Additionally, I've been in tx since I was 14 and I feel quite confident in the statement that the best mental health professionals don't become professionals because they don't understand. The best therapists and psychiatrists and social workers I've ever had were ones who'd been on the medications or in the treatments or in the situations themselves. Nobody knows how to help better than someone who's been there. My suicidal ideation centers around just wanting it to end. I don't want to die really. I just want to sleep until it's over or until things get at least a little easier. The reasons I don't do it even when it's horrible (it's pervasive but what they call "passive" usually) is because of how it effects those left behind. I have a daughter. Once you have a child you lose all rights to taking your own life. I've seen the damage left behind from even just attempts by a parent and that is one of the most harmful things you can do to a child. I've seen the damage left behind when the parent of an adult child does it. There is nothing that will ever heal those wounds. Whether or not medications work for you is your business. However, you've got no place to talk smack about something that works for someone else. Especially when those people are actively seeking support and treatment for their issues while you're just throwing a hissy fit and not taking advice offered in good faith. I'll be the first in line to talk about abusive mental health professionals but that doesn't mean you should sit on your butt when you have a problem just because there's some bad apples in the bunch. It's your health and your place to be proactive about it and an advocate for your own care. If you're not? Then you can't blame anyone but yourself for getting substandard treatment. /end rant

coookie -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:30:43 AM)
Yes subbykat. You and i finally agree on something! I am not really sure how sex comes into it but you are absolutely right in that you can control which way your thoughts go. It is often difficult to do this without some help though which is where a psychologist comes in. SSRI's are a temporary relief of the emotional downtroddenness so that people can have the mental and emotional strength it takes to change the cognitions they hold

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:31:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: coookie I do understand the benefits of sex subbykat but to say that the cure for mood disorders is good sex is insulting to the many people who struggle with depression or anxiety. You are trivializing the illness. Good diet, exercise and loving relations all help but even then are often not a cure. What you need to do is change your cognitions which can be accomplished with help in many areas. I can agree on changing one's cognitions. But I don't accept labeling myself or others with "disorder", because that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After all, we create our reality and you become what you think about. So, I am not intrinsically disorderly or dysfunctional, although I, like yourself, sometimes behave in dysfunctional ways. But the good thing about behaviors and habits is that they can be changed.

angelikaJ -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:33:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat quote: ORIGINAL: wandersalone Subbykat, it is obvious that you have great google-fu powers however if I may give a humble suggestion? From the comments that you are making as you present these articles as a fait accompli, it appears that you may not be understanding what they actually are saying (or not saying) so maybe it might be an idea to stay away from google for a bit. Yes, there are some anti-depressants which have been known to increase the risk of suicidal ideation in some people. However it is generally not only that a person has commenced this medication but a number of other events that happen..... a couple of thoughts are - the family/friends of the person who has started the medication may feel that they can relax a bit now as the person will be fine now or possibly that the person taking the meds may not realise that they need to report any drop in mood to their treater. Yes doctors are aware of these risks with a small group of anti-depressants which is why when they prescribe any medications to their patients, they ask them to contact them immediately if they experience a drop in mood (or at least, this is the protocol in Australia). What people need to do is stop taking meds, which kill the libido and start having better sex. Now, don't tell me having full body, multiple orgasms aren't a mood boost. Doctors won't tell you. They want you to take their pills. Or you have an open dialogue with the prescribing physician and often a second medication: Wellbutrin will make that side effect go away or it is offered as a first choice and issues with the libido is never an issue to begin with. If a medication did not seem to suit you in terms of making you feel flat, then it was up to you to communicate that to your prescribing physician. As for suicidal feelings while on antidepressants: the actual issue for the most part seems to be that once people begin feeling better they have the energies to put a suicide plan into action, and not the actual medication per se. However, the standard protocol is to contact one's physician if the medication causes a worsening of moods as well as suicidal thoughts or mania, delusions etc... or any side effects that may interfere with quality of life or compliance. BTW: most doctors don't actually prescribe pills that aren't necessary. They go by what the patient tells them regarding symptoms as well as the patient's willingness to follow through on other suggested remedies such as counseling. Just as physicians don't give antihypertensives to people without high blood pressure or insulin to people who aren't diabetics; doctors don't just prescribe antidepressant medications to people who give no indications that they are clinically depressed.

coookie -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:34:47 AM)
Wow izzy ... great response. It sounds like you have a good handle on your condition and you sound like a good example to those who struggle.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:34:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat But let me tell you something about depression. It's never a permanent state of mind. It's just a state of mind and like any state, it can be changed through learning to better control how you think. Yep, it can be done. But most people train themselves to feel so bad, by replaying the worst events of their lives like pushing the replay and rewind button, it's no wonder they make themselves depressed. I believe in the mind-body connection and I believe that our minds can alter our brain chemistry, in negative or positive way... You are really showing your ignorance here. For some, depression is a lifetime illness, just like diabetes or lupus or choose your fav illness and insert here________. When depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, drugs are necessary and they can be lifesavers.

coookie -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:39:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat I can agree on changing one's cognitions. But I don't accept labeling myself or others with "disorder", because that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After all, we create our reality and you become what you think about. So, I am not intrinsically disorderly or dysfunctional, although I, like yourself, sometimes behave in dysfunctional ways. But the good thing about behaviors and habits is that they can be changed. well you can call it a mood "trees" if you would like but there is no shame in having a mood disorder subbykat.

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:42:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat But let me tell you something about depression. It's never a permanent state of mind. It's just a state of mind and like any state, it can be changed through learning to better control how you think. Yep, it can be done. But most people train themselves to feel so bad, by replaying the worst events of their lives like pushing the replay and rewind button, it's no wonder they make themselves depressed. I believe in the mind-body connection and I believe that our minds can alter our brain chemistry, in negative or positive way... You are really showing your ignorance here. For some, depression is a lifetime illness, just like diabetes or lupus or choose your fav illness and insert here________. When depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, drugs are necessary and they can be lifesavers. Nobody is born depressed. Besides, they aren't always depressed. Just ask any depressed person if they are depressed when they are sleeping and they will look at you puzzled. When you train your neurology to think a certain way, it becomes habituated. It's kind of like if you started today, playing the saxophone. And you dedicated 12 hours a day for the next 20 years to practicing, you're bound to get so good at it that when you play, you do it so automatically, people think you were "born" with it.

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:43:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: coookie quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat I can agree on changing one's cognitions. But I don't accept labeling myself or others with "disorder", because that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After all, we create our reality and you become what you think about. So, I am not intrinsically disorderly or dysfunctional, although I, like yourself, sometimes behave in dysfunctional ways. But the good thing about behaviors and habits is that they can be changed. well you can call it a mood "trees" if you would like but there is no shame in having a mood disorder subbykat. Lol. Now why would i want to hypnotize myself into believing that I have a disorder. That makes me feel like I have a disorder. I would rather give myself suggestions, like I'm healthy and getting healthier everyday, rather than putting myself in a little disorderly box and sealing it shut. If you're into holistic health, you should understand that by now.

littlewonder -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:48:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat But let me tell you something about depression. It's never a permanent state of mind. It's just a state of mind and like any state, it can be changed through learning to better control how you think. Yep, it can be done. But most people train themselves to feel so bad, by replaying the worst events of their lives like pushing the replay and rewind button, it's no wonder they make themselves depressed. I believe in the mind-body connection and I believe that our minds can alter our brain chemistry, in negative or positive way... You are really showing your ignorance here. For some, depression is a lifetime illness, just like diabetes or lupus or choose your fav illness and insert here________. When depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, drugs are necessary and they can be lifesavers. Nobody is born depressed. Besides, they aren't always depressed. Just ask any depressed person if they are depressed when they are sleeping and they will look at you puzzled. When you train your neurology to think a certain way, it becomes habituated. It's kind of like if you started today, playing the saxophone. And you dedicated 12 hours a day for the next 20 years to practicing, you're bound to get so good at it that when you play, you do it so automatically, people think you were "born" with it. All I can say is wow....am I depressed when I am sleeping? Yes...it is a part of me. Was I born depressed? According to dr's, most likely since I cannot remember NOT ever feeling like this. According to blood tests, yup I have a chemical imbalance. Can I change that? Sure..with meds, with therapy, with God, with the help of family and friends and the man I love, with a healthy diet, exercise, etc... but to say that I'm not always depressed, that I will one day stop being depressed I think is just ludicrous of me to say and keeps me in denial and would keep me from doing what I can to keep healthy. It's like the person who one day says "I'm not sick so I don't have to take my meds" because on that particular he feels good. The next day though or even a few hours later he's going to crash and end up either dead or in the hospital. For me to deny my illness means I am not keeping myself healthy.

coookie -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:51:02 AM)
quote: rather than putting myself in a little disorderly box and sealing it shut Ahh see this is the area we falter. I do not believe a disorder is something which cannot be overcame or helped at all. A disorder simply means a disruption to the systematic functioning. That disruption can be moderated.

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:51:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat But let me tell you something about depression. It's never a permanent state of mind. It's just a state of mind and like any state, it can be changed through learning to better control how you think. Yep, it can be done. But most people train themselves to feel so bad, by replaying the worst events of their lives like pushing the replay and rewind button, it's no wonder they make themselves depressed. I believe in the mind-body connection and I believe that our minds can alter our brain chemistry, in negative or positive way... You are really showing your ignorance here. For some, depression is a lifetime illness, just like diabetes or lupus or choose your fav illness and insert here________. When depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, drugs are necessary and they can be lifesavers. Nobody is born depressed. Besides, they aren't always depressed. Just ask any depressed person if they are depressed when they are sleeping and they will look at you puzzled. When you train your neurology to think a certain way, it becomes habituated. It's kind of like if you started today, playing the saxophone. And you dedicated 12 hours a day for the next 20 years to practicing, you're bound to get so good at it that when you play, you do it so automatically, people think you were "born" with it. All I can say is wow....am I depressed when I am sleeping? Yes...it is a part of me. Was I born depressed? According to dr's, most likely since I cannot remember NOT ever feeling like this. According to blood tests, yup I have a chemical imbalance. Can I change that? Sure..with meds, with therapy, with God, with the help of family and friends and the man I love, with a healthy diet, exercise, etc... but to say that I'm not always depressed, that I will one day stop being depressed I think is just ludicrous of me to say and keeps me in denial and would keep me from doing what I can to keep healthy. It's like the person who one day says "I'm not sick so I don't have to take my meds" because on that particular he feels good. The next day though or even a few hours later he's going to crash and end up either dead or in the hospital. For me to deny my illness means I am not keeping myself healthy. That's one way to look at it.

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:54:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: coookie quote: rather than putting myself in a little disorderly box and sealing it shut Ahh see this is the area we falter. I do not believe a disorder is something which cannot be overcome or helped at all. A disorder simply means a disruption to the systematic functioning. That disruption can be moderated. Systematic functioning...that's pretty subjective.

angelikaJ -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:57:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat quote: ORIGINAL: coookie Yes there can be horrible side effects of any drug which is why you are expected to stay in contact with your doctor. Just like the side effects on any other medication though, not everyone develops them and it is important to find the right prescription for you. Cookie, doctors don't know. I know people who work in the pharmaceutical industry who sell the newest drugs on the market to doctors, who in turn receive a percentage off of what they prescribe to their patients. It's why I take a more holistic approach to healing. Good doctors do know. Not everyone takes that approach to medication. (and the kind of perks you are talking about are illegal) As for depression and it being a state of mind, had you been well versed in cognitive behavioral therapy, I doubt this discussion would have seen the light of day. Again, feeling worthless and in turn suicidal in response to what your Master is doing is not "normal". It is a signal that you are reacting badly to what he is doing. It doesn't matter that it is only 10% of the time. It is a signal that there is something awry with how you are processing things at times. Part of being owned for me is knowing the boundries of my behavior that would cause that ownership to end. Unless I do those specific things, while I may do something that might cause him to become unhappy with my behavior there is no question of his ownership of me. There are no threats of his ending it...even if I may sometimes worry on my end. There is nothing remotely arbitrary. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: What mostly bothers me about this thread though is that you came here for support and even though people offered it genuinely, somehow you now feel attacked. That is a response I just do not understand.

coookie -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:58:25 AM)
Good comment. I take meds and one day, in my ignorance, i thought i knew better than my doctors and stopped taking them. Later in the hospital i wrote about the true meaning of being "sick" of taking my meds. I have a girlfriend who is bipolar who did the same thing. It was not a good thing there either.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 10:59:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat But let me tell you something about depression. It's never a permanent state of mind. It's just a state of mind and like any state, it can be changed through learning to better control how you think. Yep, it can be done. But most people train themselves to feel so bad, by replaying the worst events of their lives like pushing the replay and rewind button, it's no wonder they make themselves depressed. I believe in the mind-body connection and I believe that our minds can alter our brain chemistry, in negative or positive way... You are really showing your ignorance here. For some, depression is a lifetime illness, just like diabetes or lupus or choose your fav illness and insert here________. When depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, drugs are necessary and they can be lifesavers. Nobody is born depressed. Besides, they aren't always depressed. Just ask any depressed person if they are depressed when they are sleeping and they will look at you puzzled. When you train your neurology to think a certain way, it becomes habituated. It's kind of like if you started today, playing the saxophone. And you dedicated 12 hours a day for the next 20 years to practicing, you're bound to get so good at it that when you play, you do it so automatically, people think you were "born" with it. Even though I am sure you are correct in all aspects of what you know about depression, I will choose to believe doctors and trust my 49 years on earth knowing all kinds of folks that are depressed. Amazingly, those who had clinical depression couldn't just fix them selves, and needed help. If you ever get clogged arteries and have a heart attack, don't bother to go to the emergency room. Just let your mind heal you. I mean, if it works for one illness, it must work on them all for you huh? Must be good to never have to worry about insurance or going to doctors. I am not even worthy to reply to someone of your great intelligence. I will make this my last reply to you and beg your forgiveness for ever questioning your superior knowledge of all things to do with the psyche. [sm=line.gif][sm=bowdown.gif][sm=bowdown.gif]

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 11:03:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat quote: ORIGINAL: coookie Yes there can be horrible side effects of any drug which is why you are expected to stay in contact with your doctor. Just like the side effects on any other medication though, not everyone develops them and it is important to find the right prescription for you. Cookie, doctors don't know. I know people who work in the pharmaceutical industry who sell the newest drugs on the market to doctors, who in turn receive a percentage off of what they prescribe to their patients. It's why I take a more holistic approach to healing. Good doctors do know. Not everyone takes that approach to medication. (and the kind of perks you are talking about are illegal) As for depression and it being a state of mind, had you been well versed in cognitive behavioral therapy, I doubt this discussion would have seen the light of day. Again, feeling worthless and in turn suicidal in response to what your Master is doing is not "normal". It is a signal that you are reacting badly to what he is doing. It doesn't matter that it is only 10% of the time. It is a signal that there is something awry with how you are processing things at times. Part of being owned for me is knowing the boundries of my behavior that would cause that ownership to end. Unless I do those specific things, while I may do something that might cause him to become unhappy with my behavior there is no question of his ownership of me. There are no threats of his ending it...even if I may sometimes worry on my end. There is nothing remotely arbitrary. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: What mostly bothers me about this thread though is that you came here for support and even though people offered it genuinely, somehow you now feel attacked. That is a response I just do not understand. quote: It is a signal that there is something awry with how you are processing things at times. I like what you wrote about, "It is a signal that there is something awry with how you are processing things at times." Right, so nobody "out there" is causing me to feel bad. The problem is in the way we interpret situations, based on our belief systems. What we feel is a projection of what we are, just as you project by assuming I feel attacked.

subbykat -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 11:07:47 AM)
quote: Even though I am sure you are correct in all aspects of what you know about depression, I will choose to believe doctors and trust my 49 years on earth knowing all kinds of folks that are depressed. Amazingly, those who had clinical depression couldn't just fix them selves, and needed help. If you ever get clogged arteries and have a heart attack, don't bother to go to the emergency room. Just let your mind heal you. I mean, if it works for one illness, it must work on them all for you huh? Must be good to never have to worry about insurance or going to doctors. I am not even worthy to reply to someone of your great intelligence. I will make this my last reply to you and beg your forgiveness for ever questioning your superior knowledge of all things to do with the psyche. [sm=line.gif][sm=bowdown.gif][sm=bowdown.gif] I understand that, that is what your experience has been in life...

Rule -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 11:12:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbykat I was wondering if there is anyone else out there like me, who engages in self-destructive behaviors, such as crying fits, suicidal thoughts or mental flagellation, whenever your Master is angry with you, ignores you or tells you he will break up with you? I find it very difficult when my Master doesn't approve of me in some way. I get very hateful towards myself and it sometimes takes me days to recover from it. You have scarcely anything about yourself in your profile, so it is difficult to look into your mind. Cannot the meditation and Tai-Chi that you love bring you the balance you desire? Is there any uncertainty about the rules of your relationship? About your boundaries and limitations? If there is not and you do not transgress them, how can he be displeased or angry? Is your master consistent and reliable? How about focussing on you instead of on him when you become unbalanced? Feel your own strength and rely on that, submerge yourself in your own strength, become your own rock of stability.

angelikaJ -> RE: self-destructive subs (4/23/2011 11:15:02 AM)
sk I am going by your responses. They are defensive. I suppose given that you may have processing differences, this just may be your form of dialoguing. I can also see how it would be easy to be defensive over responses that in the majority suggest you might be wrong. It is a rather natural position to adopt. But again, this was an issue which you brought here and people gave caring responses. You suggested (in other words) that perhaps you had over-reacted while in a down mood, and most people were not content to just let it go, because suicidal feelings are "serious". Instead of feeling picked on however, can you not see that people have responded out of caring? The world is a pretty small place and more than likely we have know people who have felt suicidal and acted on it, even if they weren't successful.

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