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sunshinemiss -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (4/13/2011 6:04:50 PM)
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Otter
You said: Women are allowed (and even encouraged) in our society to be more sexual than males are. While living under this concept (and sometimes expectation) can be a real drag for a lot of females (especially when your body does not conform to what is being pushed at you every minute of every day), for some males...that expression of "being openly sexual/sexy/desired" is highly attractive.
*****
That’s an interesting perspective Otter. Women certainly are encouraged to be SEXY but I don’t think it’s accurate to say that women are encouraged to be more sexual. Men are just being men, woman are bad and sluts (in a bad way) if they are SEXUAL. Let’s face it, there really isn’t a Madonna / Whore belief for men – at least not as a negative. Women are encouraged to be SEXY to please men. It still falls back on the focus being on men – even when it’s about women. (I see from reading further that Jeff has responded in a similar vein).
Lust
I remember being involved in a Christian group while I was in college. The women were encouraged to be “pure” and to dress “modestly” so as not to incite male lust while the men could do whatever they wanted. Well….. there was a guy. Tall, handsome, beautiful body. I mean seriously hot. He would wear these cut off shirts, showing off his arms. And I called him on it. I told him he needed to dress more modestly so as not to incite female lust. He was a nice guy and truly had never thought of that and was shocked to hear that women would lust after him. The men had never been taught that their behavior / dress could affect women in that fashion.
To Hib:
I did a whole paper on menstruation and how other cultures looked at it. Of course that was a thousand years ago when I was in uni. I was never brought up that it was ugly or bad myself, but my grandmother did tell me that only married ladies wore tampons. It was one of the few things that she told me that was not accurate.
One of the things I loved about being in So. America was the attitude of the men about this topic – ‘es natural’ they would tell me. They didn’t care. They just loved sex, sensuality, being with a woman, being primal AND gentle. Messy, sweaty, dirty, bloody – none of it bothered them. They were so in touch with their sexuality and the male / female dance (for lack of a better word) that this was not even an issue. (Maybe it was the men I was with, but dang, I’d never run into it so consistently before).
Your point that a little bit of ketchup on a pad does not a menstruation make is a good one. Hausboy – in the other thread – made a funny but spot on post about all the ugly that comes with menstruation. Crawling around the floor to get some ibuprofen because the cramps were so bad that I *couldn’t* stand is not an experience a man will generally have. Perhaps this is part of why it is offensive. It’s not just a little blood – it’s a whole lot of things: hoping to be pregnant and not, hoping to not be pregnant and the relief of the blood, the way our bodies smell different, the pain, the awareness of time differently than men view it, the actual paraphernalia that comes with the monthly flow, the connection with other women (come on – how many men have to ask someone in the bathroom for jock itch powder?)
Thank you for the perspective… another little niggling thing in my brain that I hadn’t even realized until you wrote it, and I said “ah, yes!”
And you know…. me and my “big” brain evidently need to get bigger hats!
Rochsub
Otter brought up the same point you did regarding being the un-you. I wrote a quick synopsis of my understanding of that in post #4. It’s the being out of your comfort zone, being something that you don’t typically see yourself as. I get that. I made a comparison of turning a nice, suburban soccer mom into a slutty gal. Same concept if I am understanding both you and Otter correctly.
I hope that you can see why I would take issue with the other humiliation focus. There are people who find the “womanness” of it to be the humiliating part. That would be offensive to a lot of women. I’m sure that more women than just me had this kind of response: “So, umm… you want to be like a woman – like me – so you can feel humiliated. And what’s so humiliating about being like me? Me and my people? We’re fabulous! What’s that you say? Women are weak, overly emotional, and helpless and you want to feel that? Ah. No.” That’s neither PC or too sensitive in my mind. I can imagine it thusly – in a different context. “I want you to paint my body a darker skin tone so that I can feel the humiliation of being a person of color. Because you know, people of color are x, y, and z.” That’s someone telling an entire group of people (and in the case of forced feminization - women) that who and what I am is “less than.” And that, dear Sir, I find offensive.
*thank you to peon for making my point about the way women are viewed. I know you were kidding, but there is often truth in humor – which is the very thing that makes it funny. I hope you know that I’m not a stick in the mud, but in this conversation, I’m going to be a bit more serious and not poke fun. I don't find your comments the least bit offensive - I understand the spirit you made them in.
As to the women dressing as men thing – I did address that generally in post four. I can’t imagine seeing this as humiliating so much as ridiculous. I don’t think we can exclude the reality that there is a certain political / majority cultural dynamic that is real and that does in fact influence the way people are viewed. We say “man” and “boy” instead of “whew”. We call our friends “guys” and not “people” and certainly not “women”. *I do like the whole “my peeps” thing I hear.* The governor governs the state, the governess governs children. There is a reality about the power of words based on cultural dynamics that influences gender, self-esteem, belief systems, norms, etc. But that is a different discussion. I do think it needs to be acknowledged, though. Part of the humiliation aspect for *some* men is that they see women as less than … it is this that is humiliating for them.
Chatte –
You said that you don’t have to prove you’re a woman. As it applies to you, I trust that this is true for you. As to other women, however, I don’t think I would necessarily agree with this. I live in a country where the women are something akin to Stepford Wives – in the street. Behind closed doors, they are tough as nails. But here, in this culture, to be a woman is to be feminine. It is like the USA only exponentially. The hair, nails, cutesy wootsy skirts, the long flowing hair, the lace, the heels… the women here who don’t conform – and they are few and far between – are women of steel who deal with heavy discrimination at every turn. They are not seen as “normal” women. They are going against huge cultural pressure. It’s rather like the 1950’s USA in my mind. There is little room to NOT be a feminine woman. (We could debate about whether “normal women” are the only kind of women, but again, I think that may be another thread. I don’t want to lose myself in too many tangents )
Personally, I am not seen as a woman here at all. I don’t fit the stereotype in the least. It is in fact one of my deepest losses – I don’t have the opportunity to express my femininity / womanhood here because how I define that is so completely different, so foreign, that it just doesn’t mesh. I’m like the 3 headed dog guarding the River Styx. Nobody really wants to come near me in that way. When I lived in So. America, my definition of womanness tended to be much closer to that of the dominant culture, and therefore I had no need to prove it.
I do see your point. I just see it in a different context.
*EDITED TO CLARIFY - it's not that I can't EXPRESS my femininity / womanhood - it's actually that it is not ACKNOWLEDGED. Without that give and take, without the yin to my yang, I experience a deep loss of feminine energy. It is not possible to "prove" I am a woman because I am in fact NOT their definition of woman. Therefore, I live in a non-sexual / non-gender limbo while I am here. (Of course when I leave this country and travel to other places, it is a wholly different experience. But there is yet another one of my tangents.)
To everyone:
Thank you for the conversation up to this point. I hope it continues. I’m finding it enlightening, interesting, and (happily) quite civil. That people have such varied takes on this topic has made this thread a real joy to read. Again, I hope it continues.
If my post in anyway is offensive to people, I hope you know that I am not intending that. I’m intending a deeper understanding and comparison of ideas. If my metaphors (which, yes, I often use) don’t work for you, there’s not much I can do. It’s how I see the world. They help me make sense of things.
best,
sunshine
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