RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay

RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (4/14/2011 1:07:33 PM)
How can you not understand why its humiliating for a man to be dressed in female clothing? Here's a few reasons for you: (1) its unmanly; (2) 60% of the average Americans on the street will think the guy is gay; (3) its "unnatural," (4) its unacceptable (unisex dressing for men is scandal); (5) 80-90% of the general public would look serious down on a CDing male; (6) the conduct itself leads to ridicule and mockery; (7) the practice seriously turns off most women. Really, the reasons are just about endless. Its just entirely deviant from acceptable cultural and gender norms. Just being a malesub -- without CDing -- and you could plug in reasons 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.

SnowRanger -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (4/14/2011 4:17:35 PM)
Hello Palliata and Everybody, I have to say that your response to my post has triggered an avalanche of questions and thoughts. I will accept your premise that my question is more accurately expressed as "Why should it be (humiliating)." Thank you for the distinction. My first question is: How would you define and/or describe "hyper-masculinity?" I have my own ideas on that, but I am interested in yours. I can't say that I ever felt 'encouraged' to be hyper masculine. I had a sterling model of 'regular' masculinity in my life. As for myself, I have been enough places and done enough things that I am quite satisfied with the "side kick" role that I mentioned above. You could count on one hand the men I've met that I might "hold myself cheap to." All but one are dead. What I'm saying is that regular masculinity is damn good place to be. I like it. The story you relate about the male-dom "masculine-izing" his fem-sub left me with another question: Is that what is seen as the sum total of masculinity, going to a STRIP CLUB? Further, she didn't have to act "like a guy" (or be punished). She had to act like an ASS (or be punished). Acting like an ass is an equal opportunity humiliator. I remain... Stumped but respectful Mike SnowRanger

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (4/14/2011 4:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnowRanger Further, she didn't have to act "like a guy" (or be punished). She had to act like an ASS (or be punished). Acting like an ass is an equal opportunity humiliator. I vote this for QOTD.

InsaneSerenity -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (4/29/2011 6:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner Misogyny, racism and homophobia are all hard limits for me. I wouldn't even attempt to make a relationship work with someone I disagree with and probably would dislike on fundamental levels. I never understood why dressing like a woman or being "forced" to be with a man is supposed to be degrading. The passive "forced" party either secretly craves sex with another man or genuinely believes sex between two men is an atrocity (homophobic). I won't respond to a Domina I know I can't please and if they need "forced" bi I know there could be no compatibility. In some ways its possible that "forced" bi perpetuates homophobia by enabling men with genuine homosexual desires to continue being in denial. Its easier to marginalize gays if men with homosexual desires are enabled to stay in denial. Some men will say they really are "forced" to have sex with men by the Dominas they seek out for "forced" bi, maybe they're telling the truth. Neither activity works for me on a personal level, they just seem to mock people I genuinely respect. woah wait wtf!!! So someone deciding that having people of the same gender having sex with each other is bad automatically means they have to be afraid of said people? How on earth does that make any sense at all? That is just as condescending and absurd a blanket statement as any I have seen. Some people are straight, some people are not. Forcing them to be what they are not is humiliating. Some people are men. Some are woman. Forcing them to be the other is humiliating, with major caveat. It is hard to be a woman in today's society. I honestly couldn't list all the things women do on a daily basis to "conform". Between shaving, makeup, and caring about what they wear I am already worn out. Society as horrible and disgusting and it is, was, and always will be, assigns roles to individuals that gets deeply ingrained. Forcing someone to significantly alter said role even for a short time can be extremely humiliating. Oh, and choosing to allow a dominant to make you do something you otherwise would not do does not meant they secretly want to do it. It mean they don't want to do it, but value that their dominant wants them to do it. Forced bi does not perpetuate anything. Saying that anyone who disagrees with any specific standpoint must secretly want it and be afraid of those who choose to engage in said activity is beyond absurd and childish. Be proud of who you are and who you hang out with. No one else's opinion should ever matter.

undergroundsea -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (4/30/2011 10:38:16 AM)
There are different reasons why a man might crossdress, of which one is its perceived humiliation value. In such cases, I don't think it's femininity itself that is considered humiliating but instead a man dressing in a manner that society considers inappropriate. I elaborate. Suppose a man shows up at a gathering wearing shorts and a t-shirt and everyone else there is dressed in formal attire. He will feel embarrassed. It is not that he thinks the image he dons is in itself lesser. Instead his discomfort comes from a perceived loss of esteem in the eyes of others. I think forced feminization usually works in a similar way; it is not necessarily that such a sub himself thinks the image is lesser but instead his discomfort comes from how he sees society to view him in such clothing. I remember a similar discussion on forums here where a young domme in college felt similarly offended. I asked her if she would feel any discomfort if one of her male relatives came to her college graduation crossdressed. I said that she would like feel discomfort not because she thinks the feminine image is lesser but because of how others might perceive her and her family. Just as responding to how others might perceive her does not make her hold a negative view about a feminine image, the same can apply to a man who finds humiliation value in feminization. Thus, I don't think seeing feminization as humiliating is necessarily misogynistic at an individual level. However, it is fair to say that it is misogynistic at a society level since society thinks lesser of or assigns weakness to a man if he dresses as a woman. I believe we live in a world that occurs as a sum of various continuums. That is, a given motivation (to crossdress for a sense of humiliation) is not binary and may exist as a shade of gray, and the net motivation may be a sum of different motivations to crossdress. Other motivations to crossdress include a fascination with femininity and its sensual power, or a mismatch between physical anatomy and psychological identity. I will add that in BDSM people often seek constructs to make submission more believable. A construct seeks to bridge the difference between what one perceives as reality (people don't just submit to others, people don't treat others harshly the way one might wish to be treated) and what one wishes to experience. Because F/m goes against the grain of society more in the present day (I believe it is changing and will continue to change) than other variations in BDSM, there is a greater occurrence of such constructs in Fm. Escaping the male identity via crossdressing could be one such construct. Cheers, Sea

cloudboy -> RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay (5/1/2011 12:37:00 PM)
quote: feminization as humiliating The irony is that women really hate it. The only item lower on the totem pole might be diapers. Being submissive is ranks higher, but it also doesn't jibe very well with being masculine. Noteworthy to me is the lack of interest in forced masculinity for females from either gender. Is this absent because women have absorbed masculine dress and style as an acceptable norm? A woman with a butch haircut and masculine dress would be a cool addition to one's college graduation ceremony.

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