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Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 6:06:47 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,
There is a thread about a fellow who has been told to be on his "period". There is something that has been kind of ... irritating (?) annoying (?) bothersome (?) about it for me. I think someone alluded to it or heck even confronted what's on my mind, but I thought it might be a topic of conversation we could delve into.

The "humiliation" of forced feminization. That's the topic. Now, I love me a good drag queen. I will admit that I've met a couple of them that made me question my orientation. They blew my skirt all kinds of up. They were / are men who celebrate the woman side of themselves, the feminine. I am totally down with that. Good on you! Same for women who want to celebrate their masculinity in whatever way makes sense to them.

So.... celebrating your inner diversity: good.

Forced feminization as humliation: mmm... yeah.

How is it that this is humiliating? How is it that "woman-ness" is a tool for humiliation? Women are wunnerful! So often they smell good, they are soft and yummy, they are full of circles instead of lines.

So why would it be humiliating to be all that good stuff? I don't recall (ever) seeing the reverse as humiliating. Women dressed as men - only a humiliation when it was truly forced due to circumstances - I'm thinking of women pioneers who couldn't be themselves if they wanted to be safe for example. The humiliation was in not being able to be themselves. Isn't "feminization" about being more true to yourself?

Now, to be honest, I am trying to be open to the responses. However, there is a part of me that wants to say "Oh yeah?!" and then list all the amazing things women can do, how we are this that and the other "better than" men. Anyone who knows me or has read my posts over the last few years knows doggone well that i love love love men and think they are wunnerful too. Kindly don't use this thread as a hate-mongering, one-upmanship type of space. I promise to follow that as well.

Anyway, I do have some heat around this issue - I find it offensive that femininity is considered humiliating. I would like to have some other perspectives to mull over.

The second part that irritated me about that thread was what looked like cowardice to me. "I don't want to admit I'm fucking a man, so you must pretend to be a woman on your period. Therefore, I can keep lying to myself." I found that offensive in a totally different way - in a "gays are bad" kind of way. So ... how is fucking a man such a terrible thing that the man has to pretend to be a woman (on "her" period for goodness sake) in order for it to be ok to have sex with that person?

Thank you in advance for your time and perspective.

best,
sunshine

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 6:51:15 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		So the concept of "humiliation" in forced fem for me has changed a bit over the past few years. 

At first, I came at it from the very negative viewpoint that it was all bad - that any humiliation that came out of forced fem had to come from a place of feeling that women were lesser within the guy who wanted humiliation from forced fem.  But in exploring my own feelings, and in talking to multiple other-gendered folk, and experiencing and participating in nearly three years worth of forced fem topics, I have come to realize that it ain't always necessarily so - there are males out there, myself included who have a very high opinion of women, who desire some level of force and control in the application of femininity in their lives, and who are not total neanderthals for wanting this...

To me, the key is in asking the question of "why" are they looking for the force to be applied to them. 

As I said above, there are folk out there for whom being made to look, dress and act like a woman is humiliating because they themselves have a very low opinion of women.  That is the far negative, misguided, beat those folk with a stupid stick side of the equation.

BUT...there are also guys out there who are looking for a way past their social conditioning so that they can come to a place where they can SAFELY feel and be submissive.  There is -nothing- in male upbringing or social conditioning that says in any way that it is acceptable to be submissive to another.  Nothing.  the farthest you go is that it is okay to be "subordinate" to another...("Yea, but I can still kick his ass..." is what just popped in to my head when I thought that!  ) 

Male conditioning runs DEEP and some guys need an alternative experience to kick them out of their head and their conditioning to a safe-place where they can be and feel submissive.  I used to be dismissive and scornful of this thinking that it indicated a weakness of character.  I do not anymore as I have met many male folk who are good and true people, and who struggle with concepts of submission and it does not come from any place of weakness, rather it comes from their embracing of male conditioning in contravention to their essential nature which is submissive - and they experience a varying amount of internal conflict over their feelings.

For some of those folk, concepts around forced feminization helps them.  Not because they feel that females are lesser, but because it is such a dramatic opposition to their own social enforced -male-ness- that being made to do this breaks them out of that constricted place and gives them permission to feel submissive.  Is it s mental dodge?  Yea.  Would it be better if they could just come to a place of authenticity about being submissive without having to have this complicated trope to get them there?  Yea.  But life is a journey and these folk have at least found a way to get them there even if it is a bumpy road.  Time enough to (hopefully) pave that road with positive experiences and find a way to come at it more easily once they can see that it is okay to do this, to be who they are and still be submissive.  It is a hard thing for most males...really it is.

For myself, I also have felt, currently feel, and likely will always feel a desire for a level of forced feminization in my life.  For me, the male social conditioning never worked.  I just took it and created a socially acceptable construct named "Michael" that faced the world, while the authentic person that I was remained inside.  When the real me finally got out, feeling submissive was not an issue, feeling feminine was not an issue.  I love women and all that there is about and around them I embrace to myself with joy and abandon!  But even given that, there is still a level of control over my expression of femininity that I simply find HOT HOT HOT!!!!  My Lady encourages me to be a total peacock, and pushes me into a sexual place more often than I would normally be comfortable with.  It is a mild version of forced fem and erotic humiliation and I feed on it! 

So there it is, in a nutshell, my evolving thinking around forced fem. I don't think it is always bad, and I certainly think that every guy out there who is using it in their kink list is on a journey...some an evolution...that would hopefully lead them to a place of authenticity - either to their own true feelings of femininity, or their true feelings towards submission - or both.

Again, it will be said over and over in this topic - if it ain't a Lady's thing, nothing is going to change Her mind.

But if there is an attraction or interest in a person who is expressing a desire for forced fem...then the question of "Why" needs to be asked, and evaluated to see where their motivation for wanting this experience is coming from.

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 4/13/2011 7:23:32 AM >

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 7:01:31 AM   
YSG


Posts: 1001
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline 		Honestly, I dont quite understand why it's humiliating either, however, something tells me it has something to do with the "loss of masculine identity", if you will. Alot of men's egos are tied into their cock and balls, how big they are, how often they use them, etc.

I think another part of it is just the "traditional" concept of women, the weak, helpless, damsel in distress stereotype. Now, most of us, if not all of us, know that most women are anything BUT that. Hell, if you tried to sell that shit to any woman on this board, they'd kick your ass, doesnt matter what their orientation is.

Now, to put a little perspective on this. I admit, Ill put on a dress once in awhile for shits n giggles. Hell, Ive been told I look damn good in one too (to quote an ex of mine: "You bitch! You look better in that thing than I do"!). It doesnt really do anything for me in a headspace way, nor do I think it makes me less of a man. Its just something I do for fun.

One day, I will find and post that video of me dolled up, singing Lady Gaga. I will warn you all now though, its slightly disturbing

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 7:39:13 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Ah Otter.
As always – brilliant, clear, authentic. Thank you for your courage and ability to respond with such eloquence.

I needed to turn your post into something a little more linear for me, so please forgive the “outline” look of my response. It’s how my mind works. <<< left brain sunny thinking hard!

If I understand you correctly, it’s not about other women or a viewpoint of them so much as it’s about a number of other factors:

Forced:
Being able to cast aside the burden of male conditioning – a burden that is too heavy to lift alone. Some people simply can’t lift the boulder of male conditioning alone. The “forced” portion is the part that is like a lever for the burden so it CAN be lifted…*Is that a metaphor that works?*

So the conditioning:
It reminds me of a study I read many years ago by Sandra Bem in which she and her husband decided to not allow any gender-specific information to be presented to their children for as long as possible. Their son wore barrettes to school and was told only girls wear barrettes. He had been taught the biology of gender and told the other child that he was a boy because he had a penis and testicles. The other child said “everybody has a penis. Only girls wear barrettes.” These children were in nursery school. (Wow.) Your post made me remember my Psych 101 (which was about a thousand years, and an equal number of classes ago).

Submission:
It sounds like this also kicks into the submission part, just another “tool” in the bag of tricks to use for that kind of interaction.

And then there is…

Humiliation:
That can of course take a thousand courses, but for the sake of the argument (and to save my fingers), I’ll whittle it down to two.

1. There is humiliation as a response to conditioning, kicking into the Man = Macho stereotype… You are such a sissy – which is less about the woman-ness and more about the non-traditional man-ness. This seems similar to a soccer mom being turned into a slutty woman. “Oh look at you… not so suburban after all, are you?” removing her from her “mom=ness” and putting her into a totally different context.

2. The other is … women are lowly dogs. You are pretending to be a woman. You are a lowly dog. In fact, you are worse than a lowly dog because you can’t even be the lowest rung on the ladder, a woman. (This is the one that you said you believed was “negative, misguided”.)

Conclusion:
Sometimes I forget that it’s a journey, that people have not arrived, that instead they are on their way – to wherever they are going. Thank you for the reminder.

Jeff –
I get the “I do it for fun” part. I remember trying to dress “butch” for a short time and … yeah – that was a big fat fail! Did nothing for me. It was interesting to feel how different “masculine” shoes (work boots) felt on my foot versus “feminine” shoes (I used to wear high heels… I really, really did). I did find I loved the feel of flannel that I hadn’t really allowed myself to wear before that little experiment. You can bet I have the best dang flannel shirt in the world. (only one, though… let’s not lose our heads – so to speak).

What you’ve brought up is a completely different thing, too. The stereotype of woman as weak , helpless, needing someone to take care of them. Women needn’t worry their pretty little heads… that kind of thing. Perhaps this is a bit like the bit above of becoming the opposite of what they believe themselves to be.

*****

Thank you so much both of you for your posts.
best,
sunshine


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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 7:52:13 AM   
ranja


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Joined: 11/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


How is it that this is humiliating? How is it that "woman-ness" is a tool for humiliation? Women are wunnerful! So often they smell good, they are soft and yummy, they are full of circles instead of lines.

So why would it be humiliating to be all that good stuff? I don't recall (ever) seeing the reverse as humiliating. Women dressed as men - only a humiliation when it was truly forced due to circumstances - I'm thinking of women pioneers who couldn't be themselves if they wanted to be safe for example. The humiliation was in not being able to be themselves. Isn't "feminization" about being more true to yourself?



I have done my Husband up as a woman a few times, He did not think it was humiliating at all, but then He does not get humiliated by anything that He decides to give a go... He mainly gets humiliated if He makes a mistake or loses something (rare occasions) and neither of these will turn Him on at all.
i get humiliated dressing up like a tart... tarts might look and smell good... or a pig... pigs taste nice... what is humiliating about a pig? i dunno but i sure feel all weird and stuff when He tells me to oink like one.
i dressed up as Freddie Mercury with a moustache, it turned me on much and i felt ridiculous at the same time, unfortunately it did not do much for Him... which was humiliating aswell... in a very unsexy way...
Once He put a small vibrator sticking out from my crotch  and i pretended was sat on show with my small penis sticking up... oh dear i got hot (or is this considered wank fodder and not what you are after?)

read 'tipping the velvet' there are some passages in that book about making a girl masculine, some with much humiliation in it
i thought was very sexy mmmm

playing with all this stuff makes me true to myself, not being a woman or a man and i don't think it has anything to do with one being better than the other, just different, material for games

being a playboy bunny is good/humiliating too
and some people just dig the 'being forced' thing, even if it is being forced to be a foot stool.

Edit: the sissy submitting to a Mistress seems to indicate that he actually loves women and not really despises them or think they are inferior at all, but more that being a man is not good enough so he needs to be changed into a girl... but then i am not a man who is into forced feminisation so obviously i could be totally wrong 


< Message edited by ranja -- 4/13/2011 8:11:13 AM >

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 8:18:52 AM   
VaguelyCurious


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Another possible source of humiliation I don't think anyone's mentioned is that some men just...don't make particularly good women. It takes more than a bit of lipstick and a pair of stockings to actually be feminine - there are all sorts of postural and gesticular and vocal techniques that go into those smoking-hot femme personas that your average Joe in a forced scene just won't have, and that lack of skill can be humiliating without actually being derogatory - or at least that's how it works for a couple of people I know.


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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 8:22:05 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		And a thousand variations...May cause certain sexual side-effects..

Let's not forget sexual arousal and objectification!

Women are allowed (and even encouraged) in our society to be more sexual than males are.  While living under this concept (and sometimes expectation) can be a real drag for a lot of females (especially when your body does not conform to what is being pushed at you every minute of every day), for some males...that expression of "being openly sexual/sexy/desired" is highly attractive.

In other words...some boys want to be pretty too.

Again, it is a bit of a short circuit...but there is a line of thinking that equates femininity with more open sexuality and desire and "being desired".  I have this quality in spades...I WANT TO BE PRETTY!!!!  Even while the very logical part of my brain sees and quite clearly comprehends the negative connotations and history that women have endured over the hundreds of years...I want to be a sex object, and an object of sexual desire to others!

What's more, many guys get immense sexual arousal out of dressing and feeling feminine.  Again, this often appears to me to be that short circuiting of their conditioning that society says that they cannot be, and helps them get into a place where they can be and feel more sexually free. 



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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 8:35:03 AM   
ranja


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Joined: 11/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

So ... how is fucking a man such a terrible thing that the man has to pretend to be a woman (on "her" period for goodness sake) in order for it to be ok to have sex with that person?


it seems that it might not be how they play every time
also it seems that the Mistress will have to wear a dong... so, will she pretend to be a man or will she be a female wearing a dong... will she feel humiliated at all whatever she decides to be... does it make her a closet lesbian that she would like the guy to pretend to be a girl or is she just playing a wicked game?

i don't understand the anti-gay bit of the question at all...

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 8:47:05 AM   
YSG


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Joined: 8/6/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

And a thousand variations...May cause certain sexual side-effects..

Let's not forget sexual arousal and objectification!

Women are allowed (and even encouraged) in our society to be more sexual than males are.  While living under this concept (and sometimes expectation) can be a real drag for a lot of females (especially when your body does not conform to what is being pushed at you every minute of every day), for some males...that expression of "being openly sexual/sexy/desired" is highly attractive.

In other words...some boys want to be pretty too.

Again, it is a bit of a short circuit...but there is a line of thinking that equates femininity with more open sexuality and desire and "being desired".  I have this quality in spades...I WANT TO BE PRETTY!!!!  Even while the very logical part of my brain sees and quite clearly comprehends the negative connotations and history that women have endured over the hundreds of years...I want to be a sex object, and an object of sexual desire to others!

What's more, many guys get immense sexual arousal out of dressing and feeling feminine.  Again, this often appears to me to be that short circuiting of their conditioning that society says that they cannot be, and helps them get into a place where they can be and feel more sexually free. 



Theoretical question, Otter. Are masculine types like myself unable to be sexually attractive? Ok, yeah, Im closer to John Wayne or Sean Connery than, say, Robert Plant, but are any of those men sexually undesireable, whether they're more masculine or feminine?

Please note, Im not trying to attack anyone for their preferences. Just trying to illustrate a point.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 9:58:39 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
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Status: offline 		And it is a good point!  Certainly males can be sexually attractive and "desired" and desirable.   But to me, it seems that society puts a different priority into that distinction in males than it does in females.  Mind you, I am not saying that is -right-...but society puts the expectation of sexuality and greater sexual freedom of expression into the very definition of being female. 

With males it is like "Oh yea, and he's sexy..." 

I don't know...that is at least my experience and perception of it.  Again, not saying it is right or fair, but I think it is pretty spot on to how things are presented in society today and for many decades past.  As I said, many women rightfully bridle and rebel against this sort of limiting stereotype and incorporation of "object" thinking into the very definition of who they are.  It would get real tiresome if it limited (or even gave the appearance of limiting) your ambitions and I understand that.

Guys are also receiving those messages and while it is not (for the most part - more today than in years past) being applied to them - instead, in most cases it is actually contributing to form who and what they believe females are.  I think it seeps into all of us (females too) at least to a limited amount.   For me, stuck on the other side of that fence feeling like an alien in my own skin, it looked awfully green over there where the girl's were.



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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 10:44:50 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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There were probably three or four times last night that I started a response on that 'other thread' because I saw exactly what you saw.  What I was typing wasn't in response to the OP.  Rather, it was more to another person on the thread who got disheartened over someone coming along and reinforcing the stereotype.  I had to resist screaming "THAT'S WHY" to the all too common question of why some folks won't do the 'feminization for humiliation' bit.  Why won't some folks take on cross dressers, trans-folks, etc?  There's the bad side of it right in the face.  Not that all folks have this particular angle.  When those that don't run across those that do, it's got to suck.



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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 11:14:47 AM   
YSG


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Status: offline 		I would have to disagree about the whole "sexual freedom" thing, Otter. When I was playing music on a regular basis, I really got the feeling that it was "socially acceptable" for a guy like me to basically be a man-whore (and beleive me, there was a point where I was). Meanwhile, if any woman pulled half the shit I did, she would be labled a "slut".

As far as objectification goes, I know there's this perception that the big, bad rockers objectify women, they're coerced into being there, we dont care about them, blah blah blah. The truth is, one, they're there because they want to be there. Two, they dont care about us either. Three, they objectify us just as much as we do them. They just want to sleep with some "rock star". I couldent actually sit there and tell them that I felt like shit for what I was doing, that I felt hollow inside, that my life had no direction. They just wanted me to be this big, bad rock god with nothing on his mind but fucking. Dont get me wrong, objectification play is fun, but I need more than that in a relationship, you know?



_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 11:15:21 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG
Theoretical question, Otter. Are masculine types like myself unable to be sexually attractive? Ok, yeah, Im closer to John Wayne or Sean Connery than, say, Robert Plant, but are any of those men sexually undesireable, whether they're more masculine or feminine?

Please note, Im not trying to attack anyone for their preferences. Just trying to illustrate a point.

I don't mean any offense here, but..........

Have you lost your mind?

Now, I'm in full agreement with Otters about the social conditioning thing.  The majority of women can't (or won't) treat their males like the sexual objects that they really can be.  It sounds cavalier, but do you have any idea of how many males really want a woman to look them in the eye, tell them that they are fuckmeat, and rip them apart?  Whatever you think, your estimation is probably too low.

All people want to feel sexually desirable.  There is a reason that we as human beings experience lust.  In My opinion, it is completely understandable that anyone who knows what it is like to lust for another would also like to feel what it is like to have lust directed towards them.  Feeling wanted sexually is a huge aphrodisiac.  Maybe one of the most potent on the planet.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 11:36:08 AM   
YSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG
Theoretical question, Otter. Are masculine types like myself unable to be sexually attractive? Ok, yeah, Im closer to John Wayne or Sean Connery than, say, Robert Plant, but are any of those men sexually undesireable, whether they're more masculine or feminine?

Please note, Im not trying to attack anyone for their preferences. Just trying to illustrate a point.

I don't mean any offense here, but..........

Have you lost your mind?

Now, I'm in full agreement with Otters about the social conditioning thing.  The majority of women can't (or won't) treat their males like the sexual objects that they really can be.  It sounds cavalier, but do you have any idea of how many males really want a woman to look them in the eye, tell them that they are fuckmeat, and rip them apart?  Whatever you think, your estimation is probably too low.

All people want to feel sexually desirable.  There is a reason that we as human beings experience lust.  In My opinion, it is completely understandable that anyone who knows what it is like to lust for another would also like to feel what it is like to have lust directed towards them.  Feeling wanted sexually is a huge aphrodisiac.  Maybe one of the most potent on the planet.


First, LP, I dont know if its possible to lose your mind, if you've never really HAD your mind in the first place

Second, I was simply trying to make a point. I like objectification play, and Im sure most other guys do too. However, the operative word there is play. I dont think any person just wants to be an object all the time. I think this is why so many celebrities end up going crazy and start drinking heavily or doing drugs.

You're absolutely right when you say that being wanted is a powerful aphrodisiac. I know in my life, I have struggled to resist women who let me know that they wanted me, that they found me desireable, etc.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

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RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 11:54:59 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

First, LP, I dont know if its possible to lose your mind, if you've never really HAD your mind in the first place

In My case, that's debatable.    I never promised that I wasn't a wee bit crazy.

quote:

Second, I was simply trying to make a point. I like objectification play, and Im sure most other guys do too. However, the operative word there is play. I dont think any person just wants to be an object all the time. I think this is why so many celebrities end up going crazy and start drinking heavily or doing drugs.

We can agree on this.  I don't think that folks welcome being an object all of the time, or even to the world in general.  That's not the "good" part of it. 

Personally, I function best in committed relationships.  The hot bod on the street doesn't do shit for Me.  With no emotional attachment, at least on a friendship scale, I don't care if you're Adonis.

Connection in place?  Whole different story.

quote:

You're absolutely right when you say that being wanted is a powerful aphrodisiac. I know in my life, I have struggled to resist women who let me know that they wanted me, that they found me desireable, etc.

I have trouble addressing this.  I can't ignore that you have had negative experiences and that tips the scales for you.  In your own mind, can you separate the two?  Being lusted over in a committed, loving experience is so much different than 'random chick' or someone with passing interest.  Well, in My eyes, anyway.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 11:58:31 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

FR

Another possible source of humiliation I don't think anyone's mentioned is that some men just...don't make particularly good women. It takes more than a bit of lipstick and a pair of stockings to actually be feminine - there are all sorts of postural and gesticular and vocal techniques that go into those smoking-hot femme personas that your average Joe in a forced scene just won't have, and that lack of skill can be humiliating without actually being derogatory - or at least that's how it works for a couple of people I know.




Y'all I know that I prefer the manly mens. But manly mens in the frou frou? Can be some serious hot. Leather crotchless panties. Fishnets. Those little mesh tops. Think Pete Burns from Dead or Alive (google!) Hubba.

On other fronts... yeah, there is so much icky about the forced period thing, it's something that really puts me off. I ABSOLUTELY understand the desire to have the full gender manifestation if you are transitioning. Having a womb is really integral to being FEMALE, if not to being feminine. (many women feel unfeminized when they have hysterectomies) The whole cascading hormone thing, the physical side effects, the actual blood and tissue that leaves your body in a way that you cannot control... it's just not something that you can co-opt with some ketchup.

Another issue that popped into my head... I am on the end of the generation that found menstruation to be a "dirty" taboo kind of thing. I never felt that it was, but many of my elders did, and the boys and the grrrls had a different Growing Up class, yanno? And little girls didn't use tampons. I wonder how much faked menses has to do with the "unclean" aspect of menstruation, that is very culturally ingrained across the planet.

~loving Sunnylicious and her GiantBrain!~

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(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 12:43:23 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Forced feminization as humliation: mmm... yeah.

How is it that this is humiliating? How is it that "woman-ness" is a tool for humiliation? Women are wunnerful! So often they smell good, they are soft and yummy, they are full of circles instead of lines.

So why would it be humiliating to be all that good stuff?



I haven't read any of the other responses, so pardon me if I repeat something that's already been said.

I don't share your perspective on this matter.  I understand where you're coming from, but I think there is another angle from which you might try viewing the situation.

I LOVE women.  Absolutely love them.  There is nothing humiliating about you being a woman.  However, that doesn't mean that one can't use forced feminization as humiliation play.  Perhaps you're being too sensitive, or too PC in your way of viewing it.

Here's how I see it.  Being forced out of your comfort zone can be humiliating.  That doesn't have anything to do with the people who are comfortable in the areas that make you uncomfortable.

For example, forced singing would be humiliation play for me.  I can't sing.  So if you forced me onto a stage and had me do karaoke, it would be humiliating for me.  But that doesn't mean that Christina Aguilera should be upset at me.  I'm in no way implying that being a singer is humiliating.  But being forced to be one is humiliating for ME.

Similarly, if you forced me to wear a bridle and saddle and walk down the street, it would likely be humiliating for me.  But in the midst of my humiliation, I never once would have a negative thought about horses. 

Likewise, if you put me in a collar and leash and took me for a walk through Central Park, and made me walk on my hands and knees, it would constitute humiliation play for me.  But not a single negative thought about dogs would ever enter my mind.  Does that make sense?

For me, forced feminization is humiliation play.  But not because women are bad or have any negative connotation associated with them.  For me, the humiliation would derive from the fact that I'd be an ugly woman.  I have too many muscles, I'm hairy, and I can't walk in heels.  I'd look so out of place and unfeminine, that every eye in the joint would be on me.  But it wouldn't imply that women are bad.  Rather, it would be because I make a terrible woman.

Does that clarify why force feminization is not an insult to women?

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 1:07:24 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		It clarifies why it isn't downngrading women for you! :)

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(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 1:10:21 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

It clarifies why it isn't downngrading women for you! :)



Agreed.  I'm sure that there are some who view it from a completely different angle.  For them, there may be some negative thoughts about women involved.

But hopefully, those who look at it THAT way are in the minority. 


_____________________________

"The thing about smart mother fuckers is that sometimes, they sound like crazy mother fuckers to stupid mother fuckers".
-Robert Kirkman, The Walking Dead

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Forced fem, humiliation, and anti-gay - 4/13/2011 2:19:01 PM   
SnowRanger


Posts: 503
Joined: 5/25/2008
From: Sinsinnati
Status: offline 		Hello All,

Before I address the original post, I'd like to address two side issues. First I'd like to inject myself into the exchanges between YSG and Otter. I think that our society allows women to present themselves as sexy but not very sexual. Conversely, it seems that men are expected to be sexual but not sexy (I am thinking of a recent beer commercial). I have to wonder if there isn't a stronger anti gay component to THIS than the cross dressing question.

Next, I'd like to force myself into LadyPact and YSG's exchange. To start, I am not fully cognizant of YSG's past and hope that I don't appear to be insensitive. I am not the John Wayne/Sean Connery type at all. I am more the side kick type. John and Sean can count on me to hold the fort or to be the guy who pops up with the BAR when they shout out, "Cover me!" Consequently, There is a part of me that, upon reading his lament about struggling to resist women's advances, feels more envy than sympathy.

Having said all of that (whew), I am more in LadyPact's relationship column. Having had a devastating experience of my own, I WILL NOT ALLOW MYSELF to consider being sexual with a woman with whom I do not have the trust and comfort of a relationship. Put my submissiveness into the mix and it really gets complicated.

Now (finally) to the OP: I am stumped by the whole of cross dressing scene. I doubt that I could look in the mirror after a make over and not laugh at myself. Vaguely Curious has a point, but I think that I'd feel more silly than humiliated. One potential Domme explained to me that I would love the feel of soft fabrics against my skin. I tried a set of silk thermal underwear as a base layer one time. I found it so irritating that I have never worn it since.

Perhaps cross dressing shows a man another point of view. To me that would be more illuminating than humiliating.

The Solar Miss is absolutely correct. Femininity IS wonderful! It's something I admire and glorify in my Mistress. I am submitting to a mysterious strength and power far different from mine.

Still stumped but Respectful,
Mike
SnowRanger

_____________________________

You can't help where you were born; and, you may not have much to say about where you die; but, you can and you should try to pass the days in between as a good man.
Anton Myrer Once an Eagle

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 20
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