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Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. - 5/9/2006 12:01:26 AM   
Lionesse


Posts: 29
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline 		Title says it all, more or less.

It's not like I don't have lots of experience.  Been there done that in the BDSM community for the last twenty years.  Happily negotiated several very long term D/s relationships in my life, for the most part happy and healthy poly situations, ranging from regular houseboy service to live-in submissive partner/lover/slave.  But somehow, this time around it's completely different.

I went and fell hard for a sub I met on Collarme. My agenda was making friends first, then maybe play partners, then if we hit it off well enough to build trust over the long term, this sub might be added to the short list of best friends I trust enough to be sexually intimate with as part of my poly family.  At the time I was not particularly active in a poly or sexual sense with my previous set of partners, two men I'm still quite good friends with, but they were still the only two people on my "short list" of guys I'd actually do in more than a casual BDSM party play sense.  I was not expecting or particularly wanting to find the love of my life; my career filled that slot very nicely.  I mostly just wanted one or two good friends with benefits in a pleasant poly situation..

Well meeting this guy turned my whole world around.  From the beginning we had an amazing dynamic that was just as much vanilla as kink, much to my surprise and occasional chagrin.  I originally thought that we'd just pretend to be boyfriend and girlfriend as a vanilla facade in front of his friends and family, but that dynamic became completely real at a level that frankly scared the crap out of me and nearly sent me running.  I was looking for a sub to play with who would also be a friend outside the dungeon.  What I found was someone who feels like my other half, someone who wants to do the whole traditional monogamy and marriage thing with me.  This also scared the crap out of me and nearly caused me to pick up and run away.  What scared me was not so much that he wanted it, but that I did too, and that is just not a direction that my life was ever planned out to go.

Long story short, I didn't run, and now we're living together.  And I've discovered that I made some pretty serious mistakes in establishing the boundaries of our relationship, and my expectations as a lifestyle dominant.  And the results are making me unhappy enough to push my "run away, run away" buttons again.  I do see the attraction of having a committed life partner who is intelligent, shares enough of my interests including our kink to be fundamentally compatible, who loves me deeply, whom I love in return.  So I'm committed to trying to make it work.  But two alpha personalities in a household are not going to work.  I cannot live comfortably in a situation where I am not the acknowledged head of household.  Which was no secret going into the relationship.  Like I said, we met on collarme, my profile at the time stated "lifestyle dominant", and my personal needs and expectations were communicated with the clarity of long experience right up front. 

This subbie is an alpha personality, stubborn, opinionated, independent, strong willed, self sufficient and used to being on his own.  I'm his first relationship of any kind, BDSM or otherwise.  He has intense fantasies of being submissive, and consents to be submissive, and says he wishes to be my collared 24/7 property.  Yet in our day to day lives he is not naturally submissive at all.   Our dynamics have gotten stuck in the boyfriend/girlfriend mode except when I specifically decide to initiate a BDSM session.  There are nifty things about exploring vanilla romance and passion when you have a mutual love interest, but dammit, "vanilla girlfriend" is NOT my most fundamental core identity and I cannot live this way for the rest of my life.  I've just been so enchanted with exploring this new vanilla thing that I set up the expectations in the relationship in a way that is not comfortable or livable with for me in the long term.

He always consents for me to take control in a play session and evidently enjoys it.  Obviously it is my responsibility to take more control if I want more control, but it's more complicated than that.  At times, he has reacted negatively to my desire to take any control outside the bedroom.  For instance, I told him to keep a daily "slave journal" of his thoughts and feelings in submission, even just a few sentences a day.  He found it difficult to comply, and when I asked him why he had not fulfilled this requirement, he reacted angrily.  I decided that this was really just no fun and not worth the pain and hassle.  I also figured that he wasn't submissive so much as a kinky fetishist who just liked bondage sex, and did some hard thinking about whether I could live with that.  With some unhappiness, I decided I could.  But it pretty much killed a lot of my interest in being dominant, because it felt increasingly like a facade, a meaningless game.  A hot and sexy one, sure.  But still just a game.

Move forward some months, and you have a largely vanilla relationship that still involves a lot of kinky play, and a not ideally happy domme who is still, for better or worse, in love with her sub.  Or maybe bottom is a better word than sub, though I'm still not entirely sure about this one.  I think that the desire to be submissive does exist in him and is real, but the mistakes I made in setting the standards for our relationship early on haven't exactly encouraged these qualities.  He says that he actually wants to be trained and to be put into his place, and that he truly wants to be my 24/7 property.  I think he is telling the truth; his submissive fantasies do run deep and have been a core part of him since childhood. 

We both understand clearly that there are healthy and reasonable ways to conduct a BDSM relationship, and there is no reality to the fantasy of being tied up and flogged 24/7.  That's not what either of us is aiming for. What I want is what I've had before in intimate D/s relationships, which is a constant awareness that I am the owner and he is the owned.  The specific tools and techniques used to create that awareness are not important, except that they should not interfere significantly with living a reasonably healthy and normal life and fulfilling normal adult responsibilities (job, family, etc). 

Right now we don't have that dynamic, and with his consent, I'm working on ways to create it on a day to day basis.  But it's difficult since I am too emotionally involved to be able to take a step back and dispassionately train a slave.  I'm not sure I would be able to humiliate him, for example.  I have no problem being extremely sadistic, but only as long as he is obviously having a good time.  I am much too solicitous of his comfort and convenience as a general rule. 

I should not be having this problem.  There isn't much I haven't done to play partners in the past, gleefully and in a spirit of  grand adventure.  I've pissed and even shit on guys before and thought it was good fun since they did too.  I've made them cross dress, humbled and humiliated them, and considered it all just another expression of safe-sane-consensual kink with people I whose company I enjoyed.  But most of the things I've cheerfully done with other subs I am having a very hard time thinking about doing with the man I love.  And there's something wrong with this picture, because he would consent and even enjoy many of these things.  

I don't know if I will succeed in integrating my need to be the dominant head of household and to have a real D/s dynamic underlying my day to day interactions in a relationship.  He says he consents and wants to live this way, he thinks he can in fact live this way since we both share a reality based view of how to run a healthy BDSM relationship. But I'm just not sure if it will work.  Time will tell, I suppose.

Comments welcome.  I doubt anyone else out there has the single right answer for me, because there really isn't one.  But other people's experience and perspective might be helpful if I'm not alone in this particular problem.

Thanks,

Lionesse

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 1:21:06 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		My impression:
1)Wonderful that you fell in love with your submissive.
2)He doesn't sound particularly submissive, and you don't sound like you can cope with this tude.  He says he wants to be trained:  if he is in love with you too, and wants to be trained, I would guess you should start small with assignments, talk when he doesn't feel like following impressing upon him about seeing to your happiness, and be consistent.
3)Talk as two adults, decide what you can/cannot live with, and see whether you two can work it out or whether you should indeed run.
Wish you luck and welcome to the boards.     M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 2:27:20 AM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline 		 Quite often the "little head" wishes to be submissive but the "big head" doesnt. This could apply to either gender as well. Anyhow, as you said there really isnt a right answer that anyone outside of yourself could possibly know. Good luck.

_____________________________

Not looking for anyone for anything, any time.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 2:43:49 AM   
Contesaluv


Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Holy Cow!  Woman!  Know thyself!

In reading your entire post I noticed some contradictions.  Probably a result of the turmoil you feel within.  Some would say that's what love does to ya!  I'd say that comes from not really knowing and being firm within yourself on what you specifically want.  I haven't had experience with one who professes to be a submissive living with me.  However, as I was reading your post it reminded me of the last vanilla relationship I had with what appeared to be a truly and genuinely submissive male.  Of course, I was trying to turn him on to the concept of a BDSM lifestyle relationship but he began to rear his ugly, little, I'm not your slave head and that was the beginning of the end.  I was very loving, giving, fun loving and made him feel like he had something special.  Yet he was not clear on who I really was, even though I had stated it very clearly at the very beginning.  I am very clear in what I want and need in a LTR and I won't step into one lightly.  Emotions can muddy things if you don't retain your control over them.  I know it's hard to do but maybe try separating the emotions from the actual functions of the relationship and have a meeting to realign things in the relationship so that things are clear for both of you moving forward.  There is nothing wrong with being in love but being in love doesn't mean that you should let go of those things you firmly want out of this relationship, if it's truly based on having a BDSM life together.  I don't think that addressing this at this time would be a waste.  If you truly both love each other, nothing ventured, nothing gained.  Better to venture into realigning this now, openly and honestly or down the line it could turn into an unbearable situation which may lead to a parting of ways and a subsequent break.  Hope this helps!



_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 4:47:36 AM   
MsDominiquenz


Posts: 65
Joined: 4/1/2006
Status: offline 		As Stevie Nicks would say..Stand Back !
Some months, and its already not quite right, give it some more months and it might become even more not right, so stand back and think of the 'after honeymoon' effect of you, long term, not being fulfilled in a very deep way.
You know you are a Domina.. this was the understanding of your relationship, he is resistant to your training, becoming an equal and then more..dont disappear Lady.
If he really wants a Domme.. he will work for that.

Im talking from experience, the one arrives, not 'just a sub' but the one who connects with me on many deep levels.
The sub is a fetishist, only sub when being fetished, a maso who didnt know it he says, resists D/s sometimes, but there was so much that was right and I gave it a go.. I had the same feelings as you..within a few months the rot set in, as I was in a position of feeling off kilter, giving too much of myself in some way ?? Compromising something?
It just wasnt me, intuition was screaming.
A few lies later..a few unpleasant scenes where I needed to balance the Domina response with the relationship response and I was having a split personality problem !!!!
I will never allow any man to change me.. so byeeeeeeeeeeee. A switch I am NOT.
I missed the good things, but it was a relief to get back to normal, and as time went on I saw so much more that was clouded at the time.

Im just letting you know Lionesse, that in my experience, once the niggle of doubts start..stand back and look at things from before the relationship experience, compare to now.. then project to the future.. can you be happy ?

I really hope you can judge if this is Domina relationship panic :)  ( I hope so as this sounds lovely in many ways) or a real niggle of  fighting to maintain your true self.
Warm wishes of good luck.



< Message edited by MsDominiquenz -- 5/9/2006 4:51:12 AM >

_____________________________

Be completely still, and listen from the inside.
www.mistressdominiquenz.com
The Dungeon ~ Forum and Chat.

(in reply to Contesaluv)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 4:50:38 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I know exactly what you are going through as I'm going through pretty much the exact same thing now. My sub is an ex-Master so that tends to complicate things a bit more as he is used to being the one in charge all the time. I told him the Master is gone, the Mistress is here and I am the one in charge. If you can't handle it then you need to move on. He's still with me, stuck to me like glue.

What I have found that helps me is, and this may sound strange, is in the times when I need to be the Mistress the most I will emotionally distance myself from him. Example right now I'm a bit upset with him and I've distanced myself from him. He knows this and asked me why, I explained to him what was wrong and until he fixed it on his end I would remain aloof. I told him If he didnt fix this problem within a certain time frame, I'd remove his collar and tell him it was time to move on.

It would absolutely break my heart to have to let him go, but I would rather do that then live as someone I'm not. I've explained that to him and he will do anything he can to make our relationship work.

Harsh? Maybe. but I am the boss and I have to remember that. I also have to remember he is actually a submissive who for years *thought* he was an alpha, only to find out thats not who he is at all. He does have submissive tendancies but having played Master for so long he is having to undergo some major mindset changes that only I can help bring about.

Mindset is what it is all about. You have to conquer the mind and the body will follow. I know what your going through its hard to wrestle with his current mindset, your mindset and your own heart. But it can be done you just have to let the Mistress do her job.

Good luck, I hope it all works out for you.

~Lashra

(in reply to Contesaluv)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 5:57:32 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		It is difficult to tell but it would seem that every time he resisted the very thing he expressed he wanted, you conceded. This actually trained him on a subconscious level & empowered his 'alpha' personality.

I am one that believes that even in the classification of alpha personalities there is still a pecking order. This is present in the group settings that I have been in that were entirely made up of dominants.

My own submissive is an alpha person. She is very much in command on the job, being that she is in charge of 1/3 of Florida's region for the company she works for & she is fairly domineering with her personal interactions within her social circle. Yet with me it is completely different because we entered our relationship with the knowledge that we were forming a structured D/s relationship. Consistency was the key. Sure we had moments where she balked at times when we would reach different conclusions to the same situation, those times I had to stand firm & tell her that I appreciate her input but ultimately the decision falls upon me.

Being that you have not remained consistent there is a tangled mess that will have to be sorted out. Obviously this has been going on for quite some time based on what you said in your post, it won't be fixed overnight.

What you will both have to do is take a step back, completely away from your respected roles & negotiate this out. Take whatever time that is necessary to clearly define your expectations from one another, put it on paper & essentially create a contract & agree to the contents. Keep this guideline open for discussion, but remain firm & consistent on the areas that you are in agreement with & establish a rule that in times of impasse that you the dominant will have the final say & this must be respected.

It is also apparent from your post that a fair amount of what you have conceded to was actually of your own free will & that you embraced it.

quote:

  What scared me was not so much that he wanted it, but that I did too, and that is just not a direction that my life was ever planned out to go.


Many of us find ourselves in a completely different place than where we planned to be. You are not the only one to experience this.

quote:

Long story short, I didn't run, and now we're living together.  And I've discovered that I made some pretty serious mistakes in establishing the boundaries of our relationship, and my expectations as a lifestyle dominant.  And the results are making me unhappy enough to push my "run away, run away" buttons again. 


These 'mistakes' are the items you need to lay out on the table, but were they really mistakes or are they just the expectations that maybe others have attempted to have you measure up to?

If you are truly feeling like you made some mistakes, admit to it with your partner & tell him that this is what you need to correct so that you find comfort & contentment within your relationship.

quote:

 I do see the attraction of having a committed life partner who is intelligent, shares enough of my interests including our kink to be fundamentally compatible, who loves me deeply, whom I love in return.  So I'm committed to trying to make it work. 


That in itself is more than many of us will ever hope to have with our life partners. I would write this very statement down & look at it any time you feel like running away. Finding a true love is a very rare thing. Don't ever take it for granted.

quote:

 But two alpha personalities in a household are not going to work. 


You sound convinced of this. Why? Who told you this? Is there a rule book somewhere that says this?

quote:

I cannot live comfortably in a situation where I am not the acknowledged head of household.  Which was no secret going into the relationship.


Then by God woman...stand by your words!

Don't concede because he gets pouty or argumentative.

But of course this should have happened from the get go & now you both have to be untrained & retrained.

But then again, I am just an outsider with very little knowledge as to what is really going on in your home. This is where the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you are both sensing something isn't running right, diagnose the situation, find the problem & fix it.

... & remember one thing, remain consistent or it will break again.

_____________________________

MstrssPassion


(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 6:22:45 AM   
LadyJulieAnn


Posts: 979
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		Congrats on finding a partner whom you love and are able to connect with on many levels.  I think sometimes when we find something that is good and not what we were expecting, our brains try to sabotage our efforts to fit experiences in the past or to meet emotional needs that have been comfortable in the past.  You mentioned that this relationship is very different from the ones you have had previously, so it is no surprise that you are reacting differently to the situation. 
 
I've discovered several different sides to myself as my current relationship has progressed, and I was very confused at first because I began to express emotions I didn't know I had.  My ideas of D/s and BDSM changed, and a lot of that came from finally allowing myself to feel vulnerable and uninhibited for the first time in my life.  The ability to do that came from realizing and accepting that I was in a totally loving, reciprocal relationship for the first time in my life, and it's a great feeling.  Did my brain try to make me run away from time to time?  Yes, but taking a step back and really thinking about how I felt when I was with him and stopping the pattern of "this is how I should be feeling and thinking because this is how I have felt in the past" helped me realize that I am a different person than I was previously.  My life is more fulfilled now than it ever has been before.
 
Perhaps stop and take a look at how your life has changed in your current relationship.  Are you holding on to past experiences and emotions because you fear change?  Just something to consider.
 
I wish you luck,
Julie

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 7:01:00 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Lionesse, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I will read your post over again a few times more to savor and think on things like a problem solver.
 
However, may I submit for your consideration -- Perhaps a ceremony/ritual perhaps, to which your submissive does an act, such as robe placement and or vest placement on you--not as grand as a coronation but; the "investiture" of power and authority of you by his act.  Symbolism at times speeks louder than words.
 
One must be able to close the door on one phase and open a door to a new phase.
 
It is also very proper to admit being in error.  To communicate and re-negotiate what bounds that you both must operate in.
 
Skimming, it does appear it is like a "bedroom" submissive but, likes to flex muscles in the public per se.  But, as other ladies have offered, do be consistant and don't be afraid to make a decision.  It is better to make a stand and be wrong, then never making a stand at all.
 
Each relationship is different--sometimes it is a matter of finding a different recipe that works to put right the M/s dynamic.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 7:35:39 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		What a complex problem indeed.

1. A LTR is doomed if you concentrate on it faults.

2. You won't get everything you want and need out of one person, period. If you plan to be monogamous and get married, you better make peace with this and know the situation will never get better. The tradeoff is security, safety, comfort, and garden variety human / friendship bonding.

3. If he's not really submissive, as you seem to suspect, then you must decide if this is a deal breaker.

4. If you compromise and accept him as a kink-bottom, and you have a need for a submissive and a need for a more traditional D/S relationship, you need to know that that need will never go away.

5. LTRs work best in an atmosphere of compromise and flexibility. I would like to think that honesty plays a key role, too, but in many ways honesty is antithetical to marriage and monogamy. When the roles are strict, when the expectations are set, when deviation is a failure, betrayal, or "threat" --- many people opt instead for the mask of conformity while going other places inside their hearts and minds. What do you see when you look ahead?

6. I am curious if this fellow could accept you being poly again, if that inclination returned?

7. I liked LH's suggestion of using a symbol or ritual to transfer the power you want over him to you and for him to focus on the submission he will give and devote himself too. Words, arguments, discussions, etc. sometimes can just gum things up. What LH said seemed a proactive way around the quicksand to a possible heart-to-heart solution.

In seems to me too, that if you engage in bondage --- if you bind and gag him ---- this would be a prime time for you to tell him what you want and expect. If you put him in a submissive state, he will be more receptive to your overall dominant needs outside of the bedroom. The key is to make him receptive and inspired, aka to stoke his submission.

8. If you do in fact instill more FEMDOM authority over him, given how you've described him, you might want to build in an alpha outlet for him so that he can meaningfully express that side of himself in your relationship as well.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/9/2006 8:30:28 AM >

(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 7:38:12 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Only one thing I could possibly add with my very limited D's experience. There are Domina's above that are much wiser than I and have already written. One thing I do know that applies to any relationship vanilla or D's, unless of course one is a slave wishing to give up their total identity, which is seems neither of you are. So often I see, and have been guilty of myself in the past, a whole person with their own individual needs and identity, getting lost because of love and wanting to make that love work. Sometimes, many times, we go too far and become more of what we THINK they want us to be and not only betray ourselves but the other person on a certain level also. As women, even dominant women, I think we are sometimes more prone to this just by our very nature. All the qualities that make us so great sometimes hurt us too. Personally I think that if we do not maintain the person we are, the things that make us who we are before the relationship we will eventually lose the hormonal and romantic thrill of newness and come to resent the other person for the changes we allowed in ourselves. If a long term relationship is going to thrive all the people in it must thrive in their roles also. 

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 9:17:26 AM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		You sound like you know just what you want.  I think that love usually appears where you least expect it, and finding real love is harder than finding anything else.  It doesn't sound like you found an unwilling male who was out of the vanilla world, but one with known submissive desires.  Sometimes a more neutral foundation of friendship can be the best way to begin a lifelong D/s relationship, but it will only work if you can both comunicate and be honest with one another, and in the end a lifelong commitment is what you both really want.

If he was simply a sub looking to scene occcssionally, and never saw himself as living a full D/s relationship, he could either be one who was just about kinky sex and scene play (and may always be this way), or he could be having difficulty accepting the reality of a lifelong power exchange which is something he deep down desires.  If you are both in love with one another, I would think you owe it to yourselves to continue to explore deeper via communication and action, and evaluate if he can be someone who will give himself to you mind, body and soul. 

If you are honest with him, and he knows you truly need more to continue the relationship, he may begin to try a harder to please you, and give into his submission to you.  When he submits to you during play. perhaps bring things to his attention then, and make clear how important the journal (or whatever) is to you.... tell him why and what you expect.  Let him know how important having full control is and reward him with whatever his trigger is... for a while anyway.   Add little things that start easy and every time he does anything, provide positive reinforcement.

Maybe you could do do the online journal via e-mails to one another.... you start by asking him questions you'd like him to answer.  He can begin exploring his submissive emotions that way, while following instructions laid out by you.  Add silly little things, like answer this before a set time, or anything which have elements of control as silly as they seem.  Explore FemDom 'erotica' stories together.... talk about different parts.  Become more demanding slowly... choose where to go, buy him a shirt, tell him you'd like him to wear it that day, ask him for favors... continue positive reinforcement. 

I have limited experience in "D/s relationships", but some of my  very long-term vanilla relationships, in retrospct were all about power exchange, and they happened naturally without any 'slave training'.  Also, my first submissive was a switch and we began on completely neutral ground; he has a very alpha personality as well.  The foundations were paved with friendship and vanilla... and the deep power exchange happened in time because we had the friendship to hold it up... and I wound up having no problems in humiliating him to extremes.  Maybe these suggestions can help, or maybe they only pertain to my own experiences, either way, doesn't hurt to share.

Best of luck.

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 5/9/2006 9:42:30 AM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 10:12:35 AM   
candleTC


Posts: 148
Joined: 5/8/2006
From: Springfield, Il
Status: offline 		Ok, wow... i'm actually sitting here attempting to get my number of thoughts in order.  Ms. Lionesse, with all due respect, You seem to be in a real quandry.  Master and i were reading Your post, and to be honest, i had to re-read just to let all of this soak in.  Falling in love with Your slave/submissive is not really a bad thing, however, laying the rules at the get go is positive.  Although things in his training have been neglected, there is no time like the present to sit down and have an honest open heart to heart talk with him. This is the time that he has to understand that You are *not* vanilla and that living in a vanilla household would, indeed, leave You feeling empty and over all unhappy.  With this open discussion, it would be a good idea to explain to him that You are aware of his need to appear "vanilla" to his family, friends, and co-worker, but this is where he needs to understand that even with that, comes a certain level of respect for You at all times.  For instance, demanding in front of his friends or family that YOU do something for him, the tables should be turned, and as he goes and does what it he needs to be done, he then asks what it is that You need.  Not only will this fulfill his end of the bargain of desiring to be a sub 24/7, it may then reflect quite highly on those watching.  ( who knows )

Master made a good point while reading this.... if You notice in my picture You will see the Gorean type steel collar... there are similar ones that are made that fit around the wrist.  It locks and the only one that can remove it is You.. not the slave/sub.  Maybe placing one of these around his wrist, for a time You set, so that he is reminded on a regular basis who he is and what he stands for.  It can be placed indefinetly until it is in his head, that he belongs to YOU, not vice versa. 

Even with everything else that i have talked about, i have to play devils advocate here and hope to not offend.  Some things that were said actually have me concerned.  It was stated that he has "fantasies" of being submissive, also stating that in the bedroom, it's easier for him to be submissive, yet he does tell You that he desires full service 24/7.  Now, when he makes this proclamation about being a 24/7, is it during a heated discussion about how unhappy You are or is it mentioned in some other form of discussion.  This is why i ask, and this is my fear.  It seems to me, that he does love You, alot.  he would, in fact, say or do just about anything to keep You from running away, but maybe hoping deep down that he can top You from the bottom, hopefully changing Your mind and allowing him to be the more dominant in the relationship.  Like i said, this is just a thought. 

Regardless of how this all pans out, Master and i both agree, that communication is a big key here... Mainly YOUR communication, explaining to him the way things are going to be done from here on out.  This is what he signed up for, per se..... love or no love, a sub is still a sub,  ( at least in my opinion ) and should act accordingly in and out of the bedroom, in and out of the house, in and out of the "lifestyle".  It's time to tighten up the reigns and pull him in, if this is truly what You both want. 

Good luck to You

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 10:47:26 AM   
Lionesse


Posts: 29
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

It is difficult to tell but it would seem that every time he resisted the very thing he expressed he wanted, you conceded. This actually trained him on a subconscious level & empowered his 'alpha' personality. 


Nail.  Head.  Hit.

I went and done it wrong.  I started out with a hopeful novice with years of fantasies and dreams fuelling his submissive desires who could easily have been molded into a very good slave indeed.   He was initially attracted to me as a domme, and I to him as a sub, but then we went and fell in love and the vanilla romance dynamic largely took over even in the presence of continued BDSM play.  I started relating to him as a boyfriend, a lover and a partner rather than as a submissive, and he responded accordingly. 

He is a naturally stubborn, independent type used to making his own decisions and resenting authority.  This seems to be at direct odds with his fantasies and desires of being submissive.  It should have been my responsibility to integrate his desires with real life dynamics, but being all googly-eyed in the throes of new romance, I failed miserably and just decided that our time together was too limited and precious to waste in arguing about the degrees of his submission or causing friction by enforcing my personal ground rules.

Well, it's been ten months now, and he's moved in with me.  We have time.  I think I know how a larger portion of it is going to be spent.  Not to say the vanilla dynamic hasn't been wonderful and good.  It has been.  I'm not rejecting it entirely.  But I have some re-training to do.  LadyHugs had a good idea about a ceremony.  He has consented to being branded, and I may well do so in a public ritual.  Er, that would be public to the local leather community, not in my front yard or anything.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: candleTC
Regardless of how this all pans out, Master and i both agree, that communication is a big key here... Mainly YOUR communication, explaining to him the way things are going to be done from here on out.  This is what he signed up for, per se..... love or no love, a sub is still a sub,  ( at least in my opinion ) and should act accordingly in and out of the bedroom, in and out of the house, in and out of the "lifestyle".  It's time to tighten up the reigns and pull him in, if this is truly what You both want.


Yep.  Bout that time. 

Thanks muchly for all the reality checks, folks.  Here's to hoping they don't bounce when I actually start cashing them on my subbie.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 10:53:21 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		You can't control your emotions, only what you do with them in my opinion.

It sounds like you let the vanilla side of things into your relationship before you had established firm Ds foundations. Is this true?

If it is, I don't know how to advise you other than you might want to do some serious renegotiation and a new contract to help you get refocused. You have to take care of yourself first and if you are really not happy with things on a less Ds firm foundation, you will have to take serious steps to change it or change yourself or end the relationship. Continuing as you are is unlikely to make you less unhappy.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 11:34:48 AM   
Kirei


Posts: 146
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		  You must remain true to yourself.  Its just that simple....hard to do but simple.   Many people stay in terrible things because of love, religion, morals, whatever.....When you deny a basic need in your core you become incomplete.  If you feel you are suffering now your at the final stage...you pasted the fear point when you moved in together.  If the suffering continues only anger and hate will be the result, along with more suffering.
Do what you need to do for yourself.  In the end that is all you can really be responsible for.

Koneko

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 12:21:36 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Odd that no one has commented on this statement.  You've been in the life for twenty years, and this is his first relationship of any kind?  That has to make for some serious relationship issues any way you slice it.

First, if he's your age, I find it very strange that he's never had a relationship before.  What was he doing while most people were doing things like falling in love, getting engaged, getting married, getting divorced, and so on?

Second, if he's not your age, he must be quite a bit younger.  Of course, I'm the last person to make any judgments about that, since I prefer older women too.  But an age difference that significant can't just be ignored.  A relationship can work, even thrive, with a big age difference like that, but it has to be explicit.  It can't be something you just don't ever talk about.  And that's true for several reasons.  First, if two people are in different stages of life, they have different expectations, different career goals, and so on.  Second, people in different stages of life age differently, too.  Someone who is 50 will age very differently over the next ten years from someone who is 30.

Third, regardless of the age difference, people ALWAYS make mistakes in their first relationships.  People always make mistakes in relationships no matter how many times they've been around the block, and that's all just magnified if someone has no experience of his own to fall back on.  The relationship is in your hands, not just because you're supposed to be the domme, but also because you have to know more about what you're doing than he does.  If he responds angrily to something, it's your responsibility to chastise him.  If he resists, it's your responsibility to make him stop resisting.  I know it can be hard to impose discipline if you love someone, but someone has to do it, and you're the partner with that task.

Maybe this relationship will work in the long run and maybe it won't.  But it can't work properly if you don't give it a fair chance.  If there are going to be any changes, you're the one who has to initiate them.

Good luck.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lionesse

I'm his first relationship of any kind, BDSM or otherwise.

(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 12:46:26 PM   
Contesaluv


Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Well said, Lam!  Well said.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 12:50:33 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Wow!  Total flashback for Me about 10 years ago.   I did have the relationship firmly in place.  So I thought.  And as time went on, and life got in the way, things fell more by the wayside.  The dynamic of the relationship was held secret since I was also raising two youngsters at the time.  That made it harder to keep the vigil, and easier to let things go, here and there.  I still would not share with family that someone is My "slave", but more privacy affords more time and energy to maintain things as they should be. 
We actually planned to marry, twice!  Then I backed off.  I was so unhappy by the time I had reached almost three years, I hated the boy.  Hate is not the opposite of love.  Indifference is the opposite of love.   And I did hate him.  Perhaps unfairly, because I needed to take responsibility also for not following through and letting too much slip by.   I did, and the hurt for Me was that I did not get married, and I sent him on his way.  I would have been miserable.  Hell, I was already miserable.
You have already received some great advice.  I wish I could go back and re-do that relationship.   I wasn't even online in the mid-nineties!  *Smile*  Perhaps that is why I am too cautious now, and seek only slaves.  Perhaps this is also why I can see so quickly through those who write, clearly showing they are in the fantasy realm, and would not give up the personal power I need. 
I truly emphathize with your situation.  It is not going to be easy.  But you do need to take back the power.  Only you can decide if you can do it.  And only you can decide if you can deal with him walking away if he decides he can't give you what you need.  I also like Lady Hugs suggestion of a ritual, and a branding might be just the thing.  I think I am more bothered by the fact that he can get very nasty and angry with you when he doesn't want to do what you say.  He is fighting the power exchange and wants it his way.  It might hurt, but if you are important enough to him, and he claims he wants this, then you have your work cut out for you.  You can do it, if you choose.  But you must choose, and then follow through all the way with that choice.
Good luck, and welcome to the boards.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to Lionesse)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his tr... - 5/9/2006 1:32:53 PM   
Lionesse


Posts: 29
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Odd that no one has commented on this statement.  You've been in the life for twenty years, and this is his first relationship of any kind?  That has to make for some serious relationship issues any way you slice it.


Yes, it does.  He's intelligent, mature and ethical, but fully aware that he is completely inexperienced in relationships. 


quote:

First, if he's your age, I find it very strange that he's never had a relationship before.  What was he doing while most people were doing things like falling in love, getting engaged, getting married, getting divorced, and so on?


We're an age match, within a couple of years.  What he was doing with his life while I was out merrily making kink with many consenting partners was dealing with health and disability issues.  His health is fine at this point, and the rest doesn't matter to me, but between these issues and his desire to be submissive rather than pursue a vanilla relationship, he wasn't hugely successful in relationships other than friendships.  He assumed that he'd probably have to spend the rest of his life alone, and made the conscious choice to enjoy his family and close friendships rather than be bitter or angry about what he didn't have.

quote:

Third, regardless of the age difference, people ALWAYS make mistakes in their first relationships.  People always make mistakes in relationships no matter how many times they've been around the block, and that's all just magnified if someone has no experience of his own to fall back on.  The relationship is in your hands, not just because you're supposed to be the domme, but also because you have to know more about what you're doing than he does.  If he responds angrily to something, it's your responsibility to chastise him.  If he resists, it's your responsibility to make him stop resisting.  I know it can be hard to impose discipline if you love someone, but someone has to do it, and you're the partner with that task.


Nail.  Hammer.  Head.  Hit.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 20
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