RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training.

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Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 1:48:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo It sounds like you let the vanilla side of things into your relationship before you had established firm Ds foundations. Is this true? Yep. My bad. quote: If it is, I don't know how to advise you other than you might want to do some serious renegotiation and a new contract to help you get refocused. You have to take care of yourself first and if you are really not happy with things on a less Ds firm foundation, you will have to take serious steps to change it or change yourself or end the relationship. Continuing as you are is unlikely to make you less unhappy. The vanilla is wonderful, fantastic, passionate, romantic, loving, caring, etc. And it's also not fundamentally who I am at a core level, and not what I can comfortably live with in the long term. I don't want to sacrifice who I am or my need for a D/s relationship to the vanilla dynamic, and I also don't want to give up the love and romance and companionship and snuggling we enjoy now for a strictly D/s relationship that did not have room for these things. So here's to an attempt at integration so that hopefully we can have both in the long run. The pendulum may need to swing pretty heavily onto the D/s side for awhile, but it can be difficult. I took him to a play party this last weekend where the host was kind enough to let us stay at her house, and I locked him in a metal cage to sleep most of the night. I let him out in the early morning to join me on the futon. This was in part because it was his first stay in a cage and I was concerned about triggering some of his health issues, and in part because I really missed being able to cuddle up with him to sleep. It's things like that which can make it difficult to impose the discipline he really needs. After the caging, he responded with a gratifying amount of abject submission, vulnerability and overtly visible subspace when I did let him out, which continued well into the next day. I think he's trainable. I think I can do it. I just don't think it's going to be easy. But then again, anything truly worthwhile seldom is.

Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 1:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Wow! Total flashback for Me about 10 years ago. I did have the relationship firmly in place. So I thought. And as time went on, and life got in the way, things fell more by the wayside. The dynamic of the relationship was held secret since I was also raising two youngsters at the time. That made it harder to keep the vigil, and easier to let things go, here and there. I still would not share with family that someone is My "slave", but more privacy affords more time and energy to maintain things as they should be. We actually planned to marry, twice! Then I backed off. I was so unhappy by the time I had reached almost three years, I hated the boy. Hate is not the opposite of love. Indifference is the opposite of love. And I did hate him. Perhaps unfairly, because I needed to take responsibility also for not following through and letting too much slip by. I did, and the hurt for Me was that I did not get married, and I sent him on his way. I would have been miserable. Hell, I was already miserable. We've talked about marriage, but we really need to get all our ducks in a row before going there. I wouldn't be considering branding him unless I was very serious and very committed to making the relationship work, but there are worse things than having an honorable memento of a loving D/s relationship. I suppose there are also worse things in the world than getting a divorce, but I'd like to be a lot more sure before proceeding to the legal entanglement stage. quote: I think I am more bothered by the fact that he can get very nasty and angry with you when he doesn't want to do what you say. He is fighting the power exchange and wants it his way. It might hurt, but if you are important enough to him, and he claims he wants this, then you have your work cut out for you. You can do it, if you choose. But you must choose, and then follow through all the way with that choice. Yeah, I'm bothered by that too. It is probably the single thing that killed a good portion of my interest in being dominant, early on, and made me more inclined to stay in the vanilla dynamic. Any suggestions? When he gets nasty and snappish and angry, I find it very difficult to deal with in a constructive way. The course of action I'm taking is to communicate as clearly and honestly as possible, and to explain that it is also his responsibility to help support me in making our D/s relationship strong, healthy and sustainable in the long term. I am asking him to actively seek out submission and training sessions with me, and setting rules about how he must act and behave in my house. He does consent, and he does want this, and if I can engage his sense of responsibility I believe he will do his best to follow my rules and to actively seek submission.

slave55555 -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 2:04:28 PM)
Greetings Lionesse, I guess that in any relationship… communication is the key. Tell your partner about your worries and discuss it with him. Maybe you guys compromise… I don’t now… but remember my Lady… Even if he is the love of your life, it is your happiness that you should think about. He isn’t your child…your child is the only person who you love her/him freely without expecting anything in return. If you see yourself have to choose between two things… choose what makes you happier, if you tried to force mixing them you’ll not find happiness in any. In addition don’t fear trying new things; because you can’t be sure if you really like it or not before you try it. a slave,

Elizabeth7777 -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 3:08:37 PM)
quote: What I found was someone who feels like my other half This is good. :) I've read your post(s) several times now, Lionesse, and what I read is a story of two people finding their way in this world, finding each other, and making a life together. Working the details of a life out together can be a bitch, but if it came easily, would it be so treasured? I wish you both the best of luck and send you many good thoughts. It seems as if you both want to get to the same place, you're just finding your way from points A to B with some bumps along the road. I hope you share with us as you go along. Elizabeth

LadyHugs -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 3:38:22 PM)
Dear Lionesse; Ladies and Gentlemen; I am monitoring the thread as you give more helpful information of "what is." What is jumping out is, 'he has consented to being branded.' I would not recommend branding him at all right now. Has not earned the right and so many regret brands when there is a break up. Perhaps a temporary tattoo to which no permanent damage is done. Make sure the relationship is on very solid new ground. Making the wearing of a collar a honor and not an entitlement is important and adds value to the collar and or meaning--not just a strap of leather or steel. In my old days, rope was the first collar, then a huge machine chain linked collar with a massive padlock, then lighter weight, then a training leather collar in red and then finally a formal black slave collar. It matters little the collar but--the stages earned and not a 'given.' I would also create an outline and then right out a "manual." Something that he has to read and in text; one really can't argue with something in black and white. Put your rules, put how you want the protocol/etiquette of greeting, how you want permission to enter in your personal space and or leave it, how you want him to behave as you do. Once you both sit down and review this manual--not only will it save you from the arguement--but; it is something you both can reference. You don't want it so that its like military boot camp but-- Ms Lionesse's Castle/House rules--or whatever your creative mind has. Men, do write with "between the lines" meanings as to get their way if they are stubborn. Really can't force them but, if there is a huge risk they'll submit. Most men love their money, sports, cars/trucks and toys. For every violation of the rule--Take keys away or give him a fine. But, make sure the fine is known up front, so he knows ahead of time the consequences of the choice. If he has the money; start at $20.00 for minor infractions and go up as far as you like. You both know the financial situation--but, you may perhaps see the idea. Make it painful in more ways than one. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

thetammyjo -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 4:05:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lionesse quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo It sounds like you let the vanilla side of things into your relationship before you had established firm Ds foundations. Is this true? Yep. My bad. quote: If it is, I don't know how to advise you other than you might want to do some serious renegotiation and a new contract to help you get refocused. You have to take care of yourself first and if you are really not happy with things on a less Ds firm foundation, you will have to take serious steps to change it or change yourself or end the relationship. Continuing as you are is unlikely to make you less unhappy. The vanilla is wonderful, fantastic, passionate, romantic, loving, caring, etc. And it's also not fundamentally who I am at a core level, and not what I can comfortably live with in the long term. I don't want to sacrifice who I am or my need for a D/s relationship to the vanilla dynamic, and I also don't want to give up the love and romance and companionship and snuggling we enjoy now for a strictly D/s relationship that did not have room for these things. So here's to an attempt at integration so that hopefully we can have both in the long run. I think we each have to decide what is needed to make the relationship Ds or SM or whatever that we need to be true to ourselves. I can be all those vanilla things you listed but with certain rituals, titles, and some rules to make it on the Ds side of things. Maybe this works for us because our needs are simple: a clear cut authority in the relationship. Everything else for us is just sprinkles on the cake.

ladylexington -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 4:37:27 PM)
After the caging, he responded with a gratifying amount of abject submission, vulnerability and overtly visible subspace when I did let him out, which continued well into the next day. Sounds like you found a valuable tool there. Thanks for this post, btw.

lunamor -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 6:11:03 PM)
Hello everyone, Excuse me if I haven't introduced myself before, this is my first post: I'm moved to write it because I keep thinking about what Lionesse has written. I want to focus on one part of your first post, Lionesse. To me it was pretty important, but of course take what I say for what it's worth (a little, a lot, nothing :) You wrote, "But it's difficult since I am too emotionally involved to be able to take a step back and dispassionately train a slave. I'm not sure I would be able to humiliate him, for example. I have no problem being extremely sadistic, but only as long as he is obviously having a good time. I am much too solicitous of his comfort and convenience as a general rule...most of the things I've cheerfully done with other subs I am having a very hard time thinking about doing with the man I love. And there's something wrong with this picture, because he would consent and even enjoy many of these things." I'm certainly not saying that you're right or wrong to feel as you do! These are your feelings and you don't have to justify them to anyone... but maybe you do need to understand them better yourself. Is is possible that your slave's resistence is not "the problem" but rather a symptom of your own ambivalence about really dominating him? Perhaps I missed something but I never got a clear idea of what YOU as his Dom want from him as your slave? Where do you want to go with him, where do you want to take him?Actually I don't personally need to know :) but you do and so does he otherwise how can you really take the lead, how can he really follow you? I know how irritating it can be to hear a lurker pop out of nowhere and spout off so i hope my post hasn't rubbed you (or anyone else) the wrong way. Your message was so straightforward and sincere, I could really understand your dilemma and just wanted to give you another point of view to consider, with the hope that it might help you. I'll shut up now but I'll keep reading :) Lunamor

MstrssPassion -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 6:15:00 PM)
Lionesse, Just a quick note to mention that I wrote you a note on the other side earlier today. I'm thinking that it may have fallen prey to the bulk mail folder since it still has not been opened.

Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 8:32:39 PM)
Ahh, I just found it. And also just spent half an hour typing a thoughtful reply which vanished into the aether when my computer decided to cause me nonconsensual pain with the Blue Screen of Death. I'll re-compose the reply when I next have free time, but for now, thank you for taking the time and thought to offer intelligent input on my situation.

theRose4U -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 9:00:04 PM)
quote: But two alpha personalities in a household are not going to work. I cannot live comfortably in a situation where I am not the acknowledged head of household. Which was no secret going into the relationship. Like I said, we met on collarme, my profile at the time stated "lifestyle dominant", and my personal needs and expectations were communicated with the clarity of long experience right up front. This subbie is an alpha personality, stubborn, opinionated, independent, strong willed, self sufficient and used to being on his own. I'm his first relationship of any kind, BDSM or otherwise. He has intense fantasies of being submissive, and consents to be submissive, and says he wishes to be my collared 24/7 property. Yet in our day to day lives he is not naturally submissive at all. Our dynamics have gotten stuck in the boyfriend/girlfriend mode except when I specifically decide to initiate a BDSM session. There are nifty things about exploring vanilla romance and passion when you have a mutual love interest, but dammit, "vanilla girlfriend" is NOT my most fundamental core identity and I cannot live this way for the rest of my life. I've just been so enchanted with exploring this new vanilla thing that I set up the expectations in the relationship in a way that is not comfortable or livable with for me in the long term. He always consents for me to take control in a play session and evidently enjoys it. Obviously it is my responsibility to take more control if I want more control, but it's more complicated than that. At times, he has reacted negatively to my desire to take any control outside the bedroom. For instance, I told him to keep a daily "slave journal" of his thoughts and feelings in submission, even just a few sentences a day. He found it difficult to comply, and when I asked him why he had not fulfilled this requirement, he reacted angrily. I decided that this was really just no fun and not worth the pain and hassle. I also figured that he wasn't submissive so much as a kinky fetishist who just liked bondage sex, and did some hard thinking about whether I could live with that. With some unhappiness, I decided I could. But it pretty much killed a lot of my interest in being dominant, because it felt increasingly like a facade, a meaningless game. A hot and sexy one, sure. But still just a game. I had to actually look and make sure that you weren't talking about my last boy. All the way down to the journal thing...that was him. Notice I say WAS> you have to make your own decision but for me the sheer daily fatigue of the disobedience was too much. My boy just snapped one day and decided he needed to be in charge for things to work...that was the final straw. Just an FYI to the subs out there...if you're going to tell your dominant that you want X OR ELSE...be prepared for the or else.

theRose4U -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 9:12:44 PM)
quote: He has consented to being branded, and I may well do so in a public ritual I would personally consider the infinity bracelet idea before going from where you are to something like a branding.

Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 9:13:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lunamor Is is possible that your slave's resistence is not "the problem" but rather a symptom of your own ambivalence about really dominating him? Perhaps I missed something but I never got a clear idea of what YOU as his Dom want from him as your slave? Where do you want to go with him, where do you want to take him?Actually I don't personally need to know :) but you do and so does he otherwise how can you really take the lead, how can he really follow you? So many nails. So many hammers hitting them right on the head. The mild discomfort is outweighed by the positive effects of useful and constructive advice. I think I managed to get a few things clear in my own head about what I wanted, and I posted some of my ideas for establishing new ground rules for this relationship here: http://www.collarchat.com/m_364173/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#364173 And you're very right, this was a necessary first step.

Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 9:26:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U I would personally consider the infinity bracelet idea before going from where you are to something like a branding. That's something other people have remarked on as well. I'm into "branding play" and branding as a spiritual rite of passage to commemorate life changing events. It's not something I would do casually or lightly, but it is something I might well do in a situation like this one. Not all brands are permanent, especially if you don't go to specific efforts to make them so. He already has an Eternity Collar (www.eternitycollars.com) for playtime, but the one he wears 24/7 is a white gold chain.

LadyKim -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/9/2006 11:17:42 PM)
Lionesse, I think any dominant that is in the lifestyle long enough runs across this scenario. So, don't feel alone. With 20 years of experience in the lifestyle, I found myself doing much of the same thing you described. A relationship with an alpha male sub where the vanilla was like finding the other half of myself. He could make me laugh like no one I've ever known, and life felt good, right, and complete when we were together. Like you, I met him right here on collarme. Part of the reason the vanilla became so prominent in our relationship is because he has custody of his toddlers, and I felt they needed the stability of Daddy as the authority when they were awake. Since I let him 'rule the roost' to keep the children from seeing their father as anything less than their ultimate authority, it led him to believe I was actually.... submissive. Can you say....... OUCH!?!? HUGE mistep there! His alpha personality was one of the attractions for me; however, it was because I knew as soon as the little ones were asleep, he became one of the most submissive men I've ever known. I see where two things really counted against us. One, we did not live together at the time, so his 'alpha' side reigned most of the time. Two, he had a job requirement that prevented me from placing him in chastity when we were not together. I am a firm believer in utilizing chastity to get a handle on a situation with a male sub. Denial of access to his own cock can make a sub cranky initially; however, it also helps him remember he is owned. It reminds him that his pleasure is at your descretion which helps to put the perspective back on the topic of who is in control of the household (and him). One thing I have found when using chastity with an alpha male is the importance of keeping him bound when his cock is not caged. It is important to be able to place him back in the device shortly after he has had a release since submissive proclivaties seem to decrease with the level of testosterone. I made the mistake of leaving the lock and key beside me on the nightstand one night after allowing thim to cum. When I woke the next morning, he had hidden the lock and key and blamed it on his toddlers (who had awakened us up that morning). Chastity tubes really don't work well without the locking mechanism. LOL!!! You have a long road ahead of you, but I really hope that you are able to establish the chain of command with him. It sounds as if you both need it. Knowing how it feels when it doesn't work, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's been almost a year, and not a day goes by that I don't think of him. Though I know the dynamic will never work because of his perception, I still find myself missing the times we shared.... and thinking of ways I SHOULD have done things differently. Now, I consider it an education of what NOT to do next time. I already knew the importance of keeping the dynamic at the forefront, but let it slip because I thought it was in the best interest of the children. Now, I know I could have stepped it up without the children knowing and communciated differently with him. I also want to point out the fact that men and women place a different level of importance on communication. I've found the more I try to 'explain' or 'discuss' an issue with a male sub the more he views me as having a weakness. Most men (especially alpha males) want the specifics without the elaboration. The facts and strictly the facts. If you go over and over something with them, it is like they think you are trying to convince yourself rather than them. Good luck to you and yours. MzKim

lunamor -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/10/2006 1:31:42 AM)
Lionesse, I read your draft for ground rules: I think it's great that you took that step! I'm sure it will sure make it easier for you to take a better hold of the situation. It will also give your slave something more concrete for him to deal with, and to consider what he's willing and/or able to do. Best of luck, I hope you continue to let us know how it goes! Lunamor

Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/10/2006 11:02:13 AM)
I do get fairly consistent reports from other dommes that their males' orgasm seems to be connected to an off switch to their submission. I have not had that experience personally, for whatever reason, with any of my partners. When I've played more casually with subs at play parties and such, orgasm is usually not involved, but on the rare occasions that it was, I have seen this effect. Also some of my sub male friends I've chatted with at the Munches admit to feeling this way. But fortunately, the boys I've been in serious LTR's with have not. If anything, they feel even more deeply submissive and grateful. The current partner describes his feelings as "floating away", and I'd describe it as extended subspace. If I've used him good and hard on a weeknight, he generally falls asleep right off. A nice hard caning (I do enjoy marks and bruises), maybe a bit of brutally rogering his bum with a gloved hand or a suitably sized toy, perhaps a strap-on, and then he gets cuffed to the bed for sexual use. We're lucky enough to have a headboard situation that allows easy mounting for cuff attachments. I've threatened to simply use him for my pleasure and not permit him any orgasms for an extended period, but in practice it's rather difficult to stop riding him until it's no longer physically possible, no matter how many times I come. And he's been known to last for hours when he gets, as he puts it, too excited to come. So we've had plenty of really amazing and highly athletic marathon bondage sex that left us both in considerable pain in the morning. Now the sub maybe is supposed to be in pain after being used, but the domme? LOL Eh, it's always worth it. Now I'm in pretty good shape and I work out at the gym, but the athletic feats of endurance I seem to manage in the bedroom with this subbie tend to exceed my gym workouts by an order of magnitude. Probably because there are no naked slaveboys to ride in the gym, which really is a pity, come to think of it. I think that more women would be motivated to really work out harder if there were. What do you say we dommes get together and start a new chain? [;)] So yeah, after being used that hard and strenuously, he may literally just pass out. But if he does have enough energy left to stay awake for a few minutes, he usually wants to cuddle up and be loving and grateful and submissive for awhile. Orgasm is not an off switch for his submission; quite the contrary it seems for this boy. If anything it puts him deeper into subspace. That's one of the reasons I have some real hope that he isn't just a fetishist, that there is some real and trainable slave material here. Our relationship road has been rocky in places, but there's an awful lot here that is worth working hard to keep. I think we're both lucky to have found each other. I'm hearing from other ladies who have had similar issues in past relationships that failed, and I'm thinking hard about what I'm going to do differently with this one. Thanks everybody for the perspective and shared experience. It helps.

thetammyjo -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/10/2006 12:31:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lionesse I do get fairly consistent reports from other dommes that their males' orgasm seems to be connected to an off switch to their submission. I have not had that experience personally, for whatever reason, with any of my partners. When I've played more casually with subs at play parties and such, orgasm is usually not involved, but on the rare occasions that it was, I have seen this effect. Also some of my sub male friends I've chatted with at the Munches admit to feeling this way. But fortunately, the boys I've been in serious LTR's with have not. If anything, they feel even more deeply submissive and grateful. The current partner describes his feelings as "floating away", and I'd describe it as extended subspace. Fox is the same way and furthermore he has zero expectation in being allow to orgasm when we are intimate. If he gets to orgasm, that is for my pleasure and for my amusement -- it never leaves the realm of my decision. All and all he prefers to bring me to several orgasms and work himself up and into exhaustion doing so then just cuddling into my arms so he can feel my body change temps and my breathing return to normal. He also loves to watch my eyes change colors he says. This all said, sexual intimacy has no innate Ds component, its all a matter of how you interprete things and it can be interpreted along a wide continuum. The same thing, I think, for all human interactions. You can interprete and use the exact same acivities in a variety of ways. The key to maintaining your Ds is to make it clear it is Ds.

DivaZya -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/10/2006 4:19:17 PM)
Hellos, and WOW! I found Mine- he is pretty much what yours was- and it took him longer to discover "true love like this doesn't happen every day"- it surprised him almost two years after I knew. Now, he is My 'primary'.. an alpha, a devoted protector and an army reservist after a good 1/3 of his life in the army.. who honestly doesn't get quite enough Mistressly domination in his day-to-day due to minor restraints. I'm divorced now and there are minors (dopey boy teens) about when they are not at x's. After following this storyline, I realized it's time to jiggle his submissiveness more often.. avoiding pitfalls..! but one concept stood out that I would like to share with you~ I agree with the Rituals - I know I've been doing it right coz You Ladies all state what I believe! To enter into an agreed upon training period, to be recognized and communicate what's been learned and what goals are to be worked towards - a month , 3 months , 6 months and a year & a day - each it's own anniversary. Each stage may have it's own rewards. As far as 24/7 goes, the 'on/off' state of submissiveness - Does he work out of the house? Perhaps leave his alpha-non-submissiveness at the door with his shoes. Set the Scene of his submissiveness by what needs done instead of 'always on'. We are going on 5 years, it was a rocky road with strange twists and sheer drops at times. Always the best Diva~Zya

Lionesse -> RE: Fell in love with my slave, made mistakes in his training. (5/10/2006 5:10:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DivaZya \Does he work out of the house? Perhaps leave his alpha-non-submissiveness at the door with his shoes. Set the Scene of his submissiveness by what needs done instead of 'always on'. Thanks for the input, Diva. He works from home (telecommutes) most of the time, and we have no children (nor do we plan to have any). So he can easily spend time around the house, even while he is working, naked, collared and even shackled. And y'know what? He's going to be doing just that. ;)

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