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What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/15/2011 11:07:50 PM   
tweakabelle


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In response to numerous allegations of war crimes by both sides during the 2008/9 Israeli incursion into Gaza (aka Operation Cast Lead), the UN Human Rights Council set up a fact-finding mission to investigate the claims. That mission found numerous allegations required further investigation by both sides and recommended so in its report now known as the Goldstone Report. This is the full report and there's an Executive Summary here

Upon publication, the Report attracted immediate controversy. Israel, which had refused to co-operate with the mission, denounced it as “biased”. Pro-Palestinians and NGOs felt it vindicated their constant complaints of criminal violations by the IDF over the years.

Recently Goldstone published an op-ed seeming to modify his position. You can read it in full here. Immediately Netanyahu demanded that the Report be scrapped. A new wave of controversy emerged, causing Goldstone to re-state his position here. The other 3 members of the fact-finding mission also released an op-ed of their uncompromising stand here.

So, whither Goldstone and his Report? Has much changed? Has anything changed? Should it be scrapped? Or acted on with renewed urgency? Why has Goldstone apparently revised his original position? Has either side done enough to investigate his findings? If not why not?




For some background:
here is the Executive Summary of the Goldstone Report. Here is what wiki has to say on the Report. Prof. Moshe Halbertal, a distinguished Israeli philosopher/academic analyses and denounces Goldstone’s Report here. Jerome Slater delivers a two part response to Halbertal here and here. And from inside Israel, here’s another two-part response to Halbertal here and here. Finally, Netanyahu's and Peres' (Israeli PM and President) call for the Report to be scrapped here

This is a topic that arouses deep passions and feelings. I have tried to be even handed here in the OP. If I have failed, my bad. Please respect other posters' views. If your intention is to name call or play dirty, please post elsewhere.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/15/2011 11:11:37 PM >


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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/15/2011 11:46:24 PM   
desiertoperro


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thats all you have for an apology?

Goldstone backs up virtually everything Anax demonstrated to you with facts.

Which you responded to with insults and sarcasm.


Goldstone writes, " I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the
Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human
Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted."

But instead his report was used in a campaign of lies to demonize Israel, by Anti Semites. Around the world and here in these forums.










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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 3:07:27 AM   
Aneirin


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Perhaps it was designed to be a disaster from the start and that in the selection of credible investigators, investigators who perhaps were not up to the job.

The current situation given Goldstone's remarks is confusion, a perfect place for many, a place where there are facts, but where there is truth no one now knows.


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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 3:25:33 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: desiertoperro

thats all you have for an apology?

Goldstone backs up virtually everything Anax demonstrated to you with facts.

Which you responded to with insults and sarcasm.


Goldstone writes, " I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the
Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human
Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted."

But instead his report was used in a campaign of lies to demonize Israel, by Anti Semites. Around the world and here in these forums.


Good morning Luckydawg. I thought you were on a ban ?

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:08:37 AM   
Aneirin


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Yeah, I thought that too when I saw the one post from a new poster using a shortened name of another poster as if they were past forum friends and of course the posting style is so indicative of some who are not here these days.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 5:26:25 AM   
tweakabelle


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Isn't that a cute approach - a banned person hiding behind a sock puppet demanding honesty!

Unfortunately, sock puppet failed to comprehend Goldstone's words or the last paragraph of the OP. Such a shame they didn't grasp what Goldstone actually wrote and said, instead of cherry picking ..... it's all there in the links provided.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 6:51:19 AM   
DomKen


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This from the op-ed says all that needs to be said
quote:

The final report by the U.N. committee of independent experts — chaired by
former New York judge Mary McGowan Davis — that followed up on the
recommendations of the Goldstone Report has found that “Israel has dedicated
significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational
misconduct in Gaza” while “the de facto authorities (i.e., Hamas) have not
conducted any investigations into the launching of rocket and mortar attacks
against Israel.”

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 7:35:54 AM   
desiertoperro


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don't worry polite sub your censor will be along soon enough to silence me.

But do quit pretending you are not in favor of censorship.




Anax, why don't you offer answers to your questions?


will they be something along the lines of.... the International cabal of Jew bankers are threatening Goldstone's family or something?



It is quite clear that the poorly done report from a biased agency (Goldstone's words though they do agrere with Anax and I) was picked up and used by Anti Semites and Israel Haters around the world to falsely demonize Israel.

The shoddy incomplete report is being missused by your ilk, and Goldstone wanted to set the facts straight on it.

It is clear that Israel Does NOT target civilians in a campaign of Genocide as you and other anti Semites like to lie about.


Anax why don't you post the parts that you feel bolster your side of the argument...That the UNHRC is a nuetral group, that Israel targets civilians, that Hamas is punishing its people, That the Palestinian rockets are so minor they do not warrant a response. Lets just start with those 4, there are several others.


OR you can take comfort that a mod will soon be along to silence me.


I bet it's the second one.




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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 7:39:11 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This from the op-ed says all that needs to be said
quote:

The final report by the U.N. committee of independent experts — chaired by
former New York judge Mary McGowan Davis — that followed up on the
recommendations of the Goldstone Report has found that “Israel has dedicated
significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational
misconduct in Gaza” while “the de facto authorities (i.e., Hamas) have not
conducted any investigations into the launching of rocket and mortar attacks
against Israel.”


Perhaps you haven't read in full the McGowan Davis Report that Goldstone relies upon. The only specific incident that Goldstone addressed in his op-ed is the al-Samouni case. Here's what the McGowan Davis Report has to say about that case:

"The Committee does not have sufficient information to establish the current status of the on-going criminal investigations into the killings of Ateya and Ahmad Samouni, the attack on the Wa’el al-Samouni house and the shooting of Iyad Samouni. This is of considerable concern: reportedly 24 civilians were killed and 19 were injured in the related incidents on 4 and 5 January 2009. Furthermore, the events may relate both to the actions and decisions of soldiers on the ground and of senior officers located in a war room, as well as to broader issues implicating the rules of engagement and the use of drones. There are also reports indicating that the MAG’s decision to investigate was opposed by the then Head of the IDF Southern Command. Media reports further inform that a senior officer, who was questioned “under caution" and had his promotion put on hold, told investigators that he was not warned that civilians were at the location. However, some of those civilians had been ordered there by IDF soldiers from that same officer’s’ unit and air force officers reportedly informed him of the possible presence of civilians. Despite allegedly being made aware of this information, the officer apparently approved air strikes that killed 21 people and injured 19 gathered in the al-Samouni house. Media sources also report that the incident has been described as a legitimate interpretation of drone photographs portrayed on a screen and that the special command investigation, initiated ten months after the incidents, did not conclude that there had been anything out of the ordinary in the strike. As of 24 October 2010, according to media reports, no decision had been made as to whether or not the officer would stand trial. The same officer who assertedly called in the strike reportedly insisted that ambulances not enter the sector under his control, fearing attempts to kidnap soldiers." (my emphasis)

You can see and hear what the al-Samouni family have to say on the incident here.

I am unable to see any exoneration of anyone or anything in the above quote. Am I missing something?

Or McGowan Davis' conclusion in relation to the design of Cast Lead:

"The Committee reiterates the conclusion of its previous report that there is no indication that Israel has opened investigations into the actions of those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw Operation Cast Lead."

In the light of this comment it is hard to see how Israel's "intentionality" has been satisfactorily examined, as Goldstone's op-ed asserts. It appears that no examination has occurred nor is any planned. There are many other inconsistencies.

How significant is it that none of the other members of the panel share Goldstone's relaxed view of these matters?

Sorry there's a lot more that needs to be said on this matter.


An advance copy of the McGowan Davis Report is available here.


Edited to add the al-Samouni family link.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/16/2011 7:52:45 AM >


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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 7:43:31 AM   
desiertoperro


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we already talked about who else was on the Incredibly biased Goldstone Panel....


There was no genocide in Sudan either, remember?


and just so we have it straight, when Tweak(and his ilk) can use Goldstone he is a paragon of virtue and correct, when he disagrees he quickly becomes meaningless.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 7:54:01 AM   
slvemike4u


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Seems that "censor" you spoke of can not get here fast enough.As I don't feel I know enough about all the particulars here,I intend to follow the thread and look at the links...what I have no interest in doing though is to read the bleating of some sock puppet,who by his very presence announces that he is devoid of honor and can not abide by rules voluntarily accepted by those who choose to use this site..
I.myself have suffered moderation..it was well deserved...the way I saw it was that initiating some faux  profile would in and of itself cheapen anything I had to say.....apparently that is not a concern for you.


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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 7:55:41 AM   
DomKen


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How many times has dawg resorted to sockpuppets when he got moderated? This is at least the 3rd time.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 8:03:34 AM   
slvemike4u


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Say's a lot about one's character though doesn't it.How can one,who places so little value on personal honor,expect anyone to take anything they say,whether under the sock puppet persona or later when he returns to his actual profile,seriously or honestly.



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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:00:37 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: desiertoperro
OR you can take comfort that a mod will soon be along to silence me.

I bet it's the second one.


I didnt get you banned, you got yourself banned for being a tosspot. I dont think they banned you for being stupid but who knows.

You bandy the word anti-semite about without really knowing the meaning, the fact you keep doing it shows you are scared of real debate on the central issues.

Your problem sock puppet, not mine.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:11:57 PM   
desiertoperro


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whatever.... You guys did have a silly thread where you redefined anti semite. But that doesn't change the meaning. Its a word in the dictionary, and it only has one meaning. despite what you, realone, Anerin, and Termy want it to mean.

So you have no comments on this.


You were pretty positive that the Goldstone report meant what the Anti Semites were using it for. Goldstone felt the need to correct yall.


Any comments on that?


For the record I do think that people who tell lies to demonize Israel, and support groups that hold "The Protocolls of the Elders of Zion" to be fact, are Anti Semites.


Lying about Israel to deominise them isn't legitimate criticism.


As was your insisting that an SS member who gave speeches suppoirting Hitlers policy towards the Jews was not anti semetic.


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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:31:45 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: desiertoperro

whatever.... You guys did have a silly thread where you redefined anti semite. But that doesn't change the meaning. Its a word in the dictionary, and it only has one meaning. despite what you, realone, Anerin, and Termy want it to mean.

So you have no comments on this.


Show me something anti semitic I have said. I have asked this before but you have failed to produce anything.

quote:


You were pretty positive that the Goldstone report meant what the Anti Semites were using it for. Goldstone felt the need to correct yall.
Any comments on that?


Your a liar.........show me where I said that.


quote:

For the record I do think that people who tell lies to demonize Israel, and support groups that hold "The Protocolls of the Elders of Zion" to be fact, are Anti Semites.


You are showing your ignorance.


quote:

Lying about Israel to deominise them isn't legitimate criticism.

Your right, but see my previous requests.


quote:

As was your insisting that an SS member who gave speeches suppoirting Hitlers policy towards the Jews was not anti semetic.


Now as well as lying, you are boring me. Back up your accusations or stfu.
I wont hold my breath.

Edited to fix quotes.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 4/16/2011 4:36:22 PM >

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:44:38 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Such a silly little doggie. 

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:50:00 PM   
slvemike4u


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Silly me,I thought he was a"lucky" doggie?


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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 4:50:37 PM   
rockspider


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The Israelies don´t fight fair, but why should they. The fact is that since the republic of Israel was establish the aim of the Arabic world surrounding it has had the stated aim of the destruction of Israel and genocide on all it´s inhabitant. Even quite resently the president of Iran has said that in no uncertain terms.
If you want to come and kill me and the people i hold dear, I will fight you with all means at my disposal. Quite honestly I don´t see the Duke of Queensbury rules (or any other conventions) has any significanse in that situation. Certainly the arabic world has never payed heed to any of that kind of niceties and i cheer whenever the Israelis give them another hiding.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 5:01:00 PM   
jlf1961


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Israel has acted to defend itself against terrorist and militant attacks which the government of Gaza and the Palestinian controlled areas with military force.

However, some of the men involved in that force has committed atrocities against civilians, which have been reported.

However, would it not be the same as those atrocities and murders committed by terrorists and militants against Israeli citizens, which seem to be ignored by many on this board.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine created many problems, which are still being dealt with today.

The partitioning of Palestine created, in essence two countries, with little regard to who lived where, and after Israel declared its independence, the rest of the Arab world moved against the new state. Since then, in light of the stated declaration by countries in the Arab world to destroy Israel has progressed to the point where there cannot be peace in the middle east.

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