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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:01:04 PM   
provfivetine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Honey, what part of... people dont give a damn as long as it doesnt affect them.. dont you get?

I honestly dont see anything coming out of this beyond elections and peaceful protests. No one cares enough anymore.


So rising food and energy prices don't affect people?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:03:01 PM   
tazzygirl


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You want to talk about riots and what affects people, research Watts.

And people just wont get that pissed these days.

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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:13:32 PM   
tweakabelle


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If it is Armageddon, can I have a front row seat please? I'd hate to miss the show.

And I don't have to dress formally do I?

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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:22:37 PM   
provfivetine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You want to talk about riots and what affects people, research Watts.

And people just wont get that pissed these days.


I'm aware of the riots in the 1960's; Watts, Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, etc. These were primarily due to racial discrimination.

It's quite stunning that you still don't think that rising prices affects people. People won't get that pissed these days? I think they will when gas is above $5 a gallon and food prices are rapidly increasing every month. Not to mention the high unemployment that is here to stay...

I wish I shared your optimism, unfortunately it is misplaced.

< Message edited by provfivetine -- 4/17/2011 7:24:04 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:27:37 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Look up the econ stats on Sweden, Denmark, Germany, etc. for countries living in what you consider Bizzaro world.

The Swedish and Danish governments take 48% of aggregate output in revenue. Shocking, no? But more shocking news than that, residents of those countries pay far far less for health care than those in the US, whoever writes the check. They consistently have a positive current account balance, a positive private net savings figure, oftentimes a national budget surplus, have a far lower incarceration rate and much lower infant mortality rate than the third-world-level US, a much higher GINI index than the US, more often if not every year lower inflation and lower unemployment, actually know how to educate theirs kids, not a small consideration to that being much better parental leave laws, the workers are better paid and work a couple fewer hours per week, aside from more vacation time ...

Yes, Yes, Yes to everything Edwynn said!
We are supposed to do with much LESS, pay MORE, and still no health care?
WTF????

I could keep going.

Oh, except to say that Sweden ranks only a few slots behind the US and UK in the "ease of doing business" ratings, otherwise having the highest rating in Europe. And they somehow still have millionaires and even a few billionaires, if a few hundred less than the US. Contrary to popular opinion, those countries did not outlaw the ability to get rich in order to look out for their own people. They just insisted that they do it by their own talents, for something other than writing the country's laws to steal more tax money.


The difference is not that they have higher tax rates (OK, well actually part of it is), it's that they know how to collect taxes in the first place, and do not have corporations writing regulatory and tax laws, both of which the US is incapable of preventing. Their corporate tax rates are lower because they actually collect what the law says is to be collected, unlike with the farce in the US. Greece and Portugal etc. have intractable tax laws with loopholes galore. Which of all these does the US represent more?


Further, which direction do some people keep arguing that we should be moving towards? USPIGS here we come, were it up to them.


We've been on the deregulation and more tax money to corporations rail for 30 years now. And after being 8 million jobs in the hole and many thousands of foreclosed homes and shuttered schools, some fools are trying to tell us that we need more of the same.

Yes, yes, yes!
Screw von Mises. Half of Europe kicks his butt on a daily basis, year after year.

Austria included.


Nice post Edwynn

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/17/2011 7:38:17 PM >


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(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:28:06 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
[...]
PIMCO's Bill Gross (the largest private treasury investor) told the public that he stopped buying treasures and that the US will default on it's debt.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/bond-king-shorts-us-debt-on-default-fears-2266565.html

Armageddon can mean many things. I just think that it will take form in a currency crisis - how bad it gets is impossible to predict...


quote:

ORIGINAL: "'Bond King' shorts US debt on default fears," The Independent, 12 April 2011

[Bill] Gross, who co-founded Pimco in 1971 and earned the nickname "the Bond King" for his expertise, has been issuing increasingly shrill warnings that the US is on course towards in effect defaulting on its debts. In his latest monthly letter to investors, posted on 1 April, he explained that Pimco was selling US Treasuries "because they have little value within the context of a $75 trillion total debt burden".

He wrote: "Unless entitlements are substantially reformed, I am confident that this country will default on its debt; not in conventional ways, but by picking the pocket of savers via a combination of less observable, yet historically verifiable policies – inflation, currency devaluation and low to negative real interest rates. Our clients do not want to be short-changed or have their pockets picked."

[emphasis added]

Just to clarify how the term "default" is being used, i.e., not in the conventional sense of failure to pay a debt.  A bit of a nit.

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 4/17/2011 7:34:08 PM >

(in reply to provfivetine)
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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:28:33 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If it is Armageddon, can I have a front row seat please? I'd hate to miss the show.

And I don't have to dress formally do I?
CNN plans 24/7 coverage...you will not miss a bit of the doings.


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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:30:55 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If it is Armageddon, can I have a front row seat please? I'd hate to miss the show.

Get your tickets early at pre-hyperinflation prices!

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:36:24 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If it is Armageddon, can I have a front row seat please? I'd hate to miss the show.

And I don't have to dress formally do I?
CNN plans 24/7 coverage...you will not miss a bit of the doings.


"The top 25 hedge fund earners took in $22.07 billion in 2010. Thanks to a generous tax loophole these billionaires will pay a top tax rate of 15 percent instead of 35 percent. Closing that loophole on just those 25 individuals – just 25 guys who wouldn’t miss a penny of it -- would raise $4.4 billion, which is enough to rehire 126,000 laid-off teachers" *

Just an idea ..... I would have thought if people were serious about balancing the Budget and getting rid of the deficit, this is a very good place to start ......


* http://www.alternet.org/economy/150570/hedge_fund_gamblers_earn_the_same_in_one_hour_as_a_middle-class_household_makes_in_over_47_years/?page=entire

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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 7:58:27 PM   
Sanity


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I did the weekly grocery shopping today and everything was noticeably higher. I cursed the higher transportation costs due to diesel going up, and couldnt help thinking about those who are much poorer than I and what they must be going through. Its worrisome,  especially knowing that things could get a lot worse before they get any better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Honey, what part of... people dont give a damn as long as it doesnt affect them.. dont you get?

I honestly dont see anything coming out of this beyond elections and peaceful protests. No one cares enough anymore.


So rising food and energy prices don't affect people?


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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 8:32:54 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I did the weekly grocery shopping today and everything was noticeably higher. I cursed the higher transportation costs due to diesel going up, and couldnt help thinking about those who are much poorer than I and what they must be going through. Its worrisome,  especially knowing that things could get a lot worse before they get any better.




Sanity, I can't say enough how wonderful it is to hear you express some empathy and warmth for those who don't share your comforts. As far as I can recall, this is the first time you've done it. So congratulations on breaking new ground.

Please make a habit of it - you'll feel so much better for it! And so will all of us!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/17/2011 8:33:34 PM >


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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 8:40:04 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

The starting point for all this nonsense is to bring our troops home, not just from Iraq and Afghanistan, but from Germany, Japan, Korea, and the other 150 countries that the US has troops in. We simply cannot afford to police the world at the cost of over a trillion dollars per year. Additionally, social security, medicare, medicaid have to be abolished and anyone under the age of 50 has to accept that the were scammed and fell victims to a Ponzi Scheme. In short, these (radical) steps are just the start, and anyone advocating for "fixing the budget" is just living in Bizzaro-World if they suggest otherwise.



I agree that troops should be brought home and the US should stop policing the world. Social security should continue. Medicare and medicaid could be abolished for single payer health care, which is much less expensive. Also, all tax cuts for the rich and subsidies for rich oil companies should end. The government should also get out of these free trade deals and pass laws that will bring decent paying manufacturing jobs back to the US. The less money workers make, the less taxes they can pay, the longer it takes the US to get out of debt. The more money workers make, the more taxes they can pay, the faster the US will be out of debt.


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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/17/2011 10:13:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

It's quite stunning that you still don't think that rising prices affects people. People won't get that pissed these days? I think they will when gas is above $5 a gallon and food prices are rapidly increasing every month. Not to mention the high unemployment that is here to stay...

I wish I shared your optimism, unfortunately it is misplaced.


Its quite stunning you are putting words into my mouth.

People wont get as pissed as they did in the 60's. As soon as their "cause" is complete, they go home. There was no violence in Wisconsin.

Gas prices arent as high as they were in 2008.

The highest ever price recorded was in July 2008, when the price hit the $4.06 mark.

Im not saying it wont go that high or higher now, but there was hardly an armegeddon then. People will buckle down and do what they did last time... drive less and use public transportation when possible. Food prices also escalated. Again, return to basics, more home cooking, less going out to eat.

Total unemployment is down from the high of 17.4 Oct, 2009 to the current 15.7 March 2010. Still no rioting. Unemployment has been double digits a few times since 1994... these are U6 numbers, not U3.

From Jan 1994 till Feb 1996, we ran double digit numbers. Most of 2003 were double digits.. and we have been running double since Jun, 2008.

Are people pissed? Sure. Will they riot in the streets? Nope.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 3:44:50 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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A key difference with gas prices now is that the presidential administration favors these higher gas prices because of its close ties to certain special interest groups who also favor higher fuel prices, so fuel costs are not as likely to go back down like they did in 2008.


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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 4:15:39 AM   
Lucylastic


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Waiting for the UK prices and the Canadian prices to go down then as we are not influenced by Obama,
oooh bugger it went up ANOTHER 3 cents a liter over the weekend
Maybe Trump is right about  OPEC
HAHAHHAHHAHAHHA


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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 4:25:21 AM   
Sanity


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Taxes have a lot to do with higher prices in UK though I dont know about Canada.

Regardless of your hysterical spin the environmental extremists' drilling interference is extremely counterproductive, it should be fairly obvious to anyone that while people are going hungry we should be drilling for fuel rather than converting food into fuel.

And arent there fanatical greens in Europe and Canada trying to throw wrenches into the oil works there, as well? I wasnt trying to suggest that environmental extremists are just an American problem, sorry that youre so confused about it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Waiting for the UK prices and the Canadian prices to go down then as we are not influenced by Obama,
oooh bugger it went up ANOTHER 3 cents a liter over the weekend
Maybe Trump is right about  OPEC
HAHAHHAHHAHAHHA



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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 4:32:41 AM   
Lucylastic


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Im not confused,  you are ignorant about what I was saying.
The prices have still gone up , and not because of taxes in either country, altho yes there are certainly taxes, the price increases in the past few months arent due to that.
Please look into getting more education about other countries
Hysterical spin?? over exaggerate much?
Its down to the oil companies and speculators, unless you are donald then its opec,
Safety is counterproductive?? of course it  doesnt matter who dies , human animal or mineral, it  doesnt matter as long as its bringing in money ? What an ignorant and murderous point of view


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<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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Duchess Of Dissent
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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 5:58:49 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Its down to the oil companies and speculators, unless you are donald then its opec,


No, so sorry but you are wrong again. The executive branch of government here in the United States has a great deal of influence over oil availability (and therefore pricing) due in large part to the massive bureaucracy it sits atop of.

Here is but one example of how this works

quote:

Battle lines have been hardening over the proposed Keystone XL pipeline over the last couple of weeks. The pipeline, which will stretch from Alberta in Canada to refineries on the Gulf Coast, would nearly double the United States’ capacity to import oil made from Canadian oil sands. Canadian oil sands are a plentiful and secure source of oil, but the extraction process is high in carbon dioxide emissions and takes a toll on pristine Canadian forest ecosystems.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton will soon have to decide whether to allow the pipeline construction to proceed next year, and the State Department is -– once again -– studying the potential environmental impact. Environmental groups and a host of government agencies, including the Environmental Protection Agency and the Energy Department, had judged an earlier evaluation inadequate.
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/01/clinton-facing-heat-on-oil-sands-pipeline/


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Safety is counterproductive?? of course it  doesnt matter who dies , human animal or mineral, it  doesnt matter as long as its bringing in money ? What an ignorant and murderous point of view



I never wrote anything about safety being counterproductive, silly girl. Try and get a grip on reality!

But on to the real issue, as opposed to the ones you make up... the United States consumes enough oil that it influences the rest of the globes supply and demand. We also have a lot of oil we are not even trying to access, vast fields which we have purposely locked up and those particular chickens are beginning to come home to roost


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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 6:03:55 AM   
mnottertail


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I have a bunch of family that works on the uncountable pipelines coming thru canada feeding us oil, as well as the Dakota shale and sand oil.

There is more oil flowing thru those pipelines and out of those pits than we ourselves will use for generations.

Alot of it ends up going overseas, because they get a much higher price for it.

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RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals - 4/18/2011 6:06:17 AM   
ArizonaBossMan


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I say let Dear Leader take care of us. Hope and change baby. I hope I have change enough to buy a candy bar to eat today. No need to give to charity as Dear Leader will cut the check. No need to worry about mortgage, rent, car payments... Dear Leader pays out of his stash.

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