RE: Value of submission (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 8:11:15 AM)

Grin.. a good question, and I'm glad I read the other posts before replying - I like a thread that teaches me something on the way!

My initial response would have been to say that I'm not that interested in people that are basically submissive - there's no sense of achievement in making a basically submissive person submit.

Having read the thread, I 'spose my response is basically the same, but a little more nuanced.

I like strong, independent, clever people. But that doesn't mean they can't be naturally submissive as well. Or that they might be utterly assertive, but (for whatever reason) naturally submissive to me.

I'm not sure I'd want my partner to be constantly struggling with her submission to me - I'd rather it felt right - however dominant/assertive/independent she was with everyone else..



leadership527 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 8:19:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
there's no sense of achievement in making a basically submissive person submit.

I totally agree. But there IS a very real and worthwhile sense of achievement attached to building a relationship which fits the people involved in it. Some people are focused on process and others on objectives. I'm more an "objective" guy. The process is just a means to an end. Not that I'm knocking the process folks, but man I sure do daily appreciate how it is that "carol's place" is actually HER place and she doesn't need to be "put in it".... she gravitates to it all by herself.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 9:12:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Grin.. a good question, and I'm glad I read the other posts before replying - I like a thread that teaches me something on the way!

My initial response would have been to say that I'm not that interested in people that are basically submissive - there's no sense of achievement in making a basically submissive person submit.

Having read the thread, I 'spose my response is basically the same, but a little more nuanced.

I like strong, independent, clever people. But that doesn't mean they can't be naturally submissive as well. Or that they might be utterly assertive, but (for whatever reason) naturally submissive to me.

I'm not sure I'd want my partner to be constantly struggling with her submission to me - I'd rather it felt right - however dominant/assertive/independent she was with everyone else..



I agree with both the statements highlighted above.

First, let me say that in general a male will appreciate a female far more if he works hard to get her in the beginning. You may not agree with this statement, but I have seen it ring true in my own life time and time again. Personally I find anyone willing to submit to anyone and everyone at the drop of a hat to be boring beyond belief. Initially I want to work for that submission, for me, that's the only way I know its real.

As far as someone is a committed relationship struggling with submission constantly, I would say that is not a good match. I don't struggle, I love each and every opportunity I get to show my devotion.

I do think some doms are quicker to push a sub's comfort zone on certain things. Whether or not that is good or bad depends on the dynamic. Mine is slowly but surely taking me out of my comfort zone in terms of being so focused on goals or what needs to be done that I forget the here and now.  I'm not so much struggling with that as being carefully and gently led in that direction.



linda57 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 9:19:41 AM)

that shows you're an individual who thinks for yourself. One thing for sure,it's either accepted or rejected-LOL!



leadership527 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 9:41:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
First, let me say that in general a male will appreciate a female far more if he works hard to get her in the beginning.

Perhaps. You'll have to excuse me though if I prefer to hear about males from a male. My general impression is that women understand men about as well as men understand women... which is to say... not much at all. I am at least one data point to the contrary. I was hoping for a life partner, not a conquest.

Initially I want to work for that submission, for me, that's the only way I know its real.
OK, I'm not challenging what you want or what works for you. But I do have a question. What is "real submission" to you? I ask because I know whether Carol's submission is "real" because she submits. That is to say, I tell her to do stuff and she does. That's because "real submission" to me is rooted in actual behavior as opposed to mental states. So I'm curious how, exactly you see it that verifying it's "reality" is hard.



porcelaine -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 9:54:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

My initial response would have been to say that I'm not that interested in people that are basically submissive - there's no sense of achievement in making a basically submissive person submit.


Whereas my line of thought would question the depth of your toolbox if you sincerely believed that comment. An individual can have an inherent need (or ability) to yield but that doesn't imply they'd do it for everyone. So while i'm very obedient oriented, i wouldn't submit to you. There goes your theory. [;)]

And with the statement made are you suggesting that you've conjured every imaginable possibility one can explore on the subject? i'd think not. Being submissive and being placed in a situation where a specific form of acquiesce is required is a different animal.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



Rochsub2009 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 10:29:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherscorp1
Subs do you ever feel that obedience or subservience comes so easily that it's not truly appreciated? Doms do you ever get bored with a sub that is extremely submissive and accomodating and doesn't need to be "whipped into shape" as it were?


As others have stated, there is no "right" answer to this question.  Everyone is going to differ, just as every D/s dynamic is going to differ.

However, I personally feel that since it is submission that I seek, why would I be disobedient or ornery?  Doing so would be in conflict with the my concept of submission.  Yet, I have dealt with Dommes who were just as you described; they felt that a sub needed to be "whipped into shape".

This caused a problem in the relationship, because I tend to be a high achiever,  I strive to excel in everything I do.  This includes my submission.  So I was diligent to do everything she told me to do, exactly the way she told me to do it.  Whenever it made sense to do so, I even exceeded her expectations.  Yet, this became a point of contention for us.  She enjoyed punishing, but I was giving her nothing to punish me for.  So she started punishing me even when I did exactly what she told me to do. 

Even a puppy will get confused if you punish him for NOT peeing on the carpet.  IMO, good behavior should get positive reenforcement, and bad behavior should be dealt with by punishment.  So being punished for doing what I was told became demotivating for me.  I wanted her to be pleased by my obedience.  Instead, it was a point of frustration for her.

We ultimately realized that we had incompatible needs.  She really wanted someone who gave her frequent reasons to punish them.  She wanted a bratty sub.  I wanted someone who would appreciate my obedience and the attention that I paid to her needs/desires.




TheShrew -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 10:33:52 AM)

do you think that a person who has to work harder to be subservient is more valued? <~ As opposed to the Dom/me who has to work harder to bring that sub to a point of acceptable {to them} subservience? No.

Subs do you ever feel that obedience or subservience comes so easily that it's not truly appreciated? <~ Some days it comes easy, some days it comes hard, some days it doesn't come at all. When it comes easy, you're still making the choice to comply. When someone willingly make that choice for me, even if it's easy, it is still appreciated.

Doms do you ever get bored with a sub that is extremely submissive and accomodating and doesn't need to be "whipped into shape" as it were? <~ No, I do not get bored with a sub who has a willing nature, because I normally visit "that thing" they find no fun or unpleasant. If I only instructed what was enjoyable I'd be failing to challenge either myself or them. So, when I select that unpleasant thing, and they choose to comply I enjoy knowing they'd prefer not do perform the task but tried.

There is something about the title of the thread ..."Value of submission." I really do feel the value of submission is equal to the value of dominance. I really hope this is not considered "hijacking." If my reply takes this thread in a direction the OP did not want it to go, I do apologize. {Perhaps, my response is a topic waiting to happen.}

It seems so much attention is placed on submission, serving, being subservient, the choice, the gift, <insert your phrase here>  You can't be "on" 24/7 because life happens, people change, things evolve and we're in this never ending daily grind without regard to bdsm in any form. You have to work at any relationship you'll ever have be it work, play, peers, or intimate. That being said, it stands to reason that on certain days it could be either D or s that  has to rise to the occasion, to try, to push, to put forth effort, to work harder. Effort deserves appreciation, no matter your role/nature.

When all else fails, just remember "that sub ain't gonna dom/me him/herself."

<End hijack, if that's what I did.>



leadership527 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 11:43:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheShrew
Effort deserves appreciation, no matter your role/nature.

Well, hijack or not I thought the above statement should be enshrined somewhere.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 12:15:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


Perhaps. You'll have to excuse me though if I prefer to hear about males from a male. My general impression is that women understand men about as well as men understand women... which is to say... not much at all. I am at least one data point to the contrary. I was hoping for a life partner, not a conquest.

Initially I want to work for that submission, for me, that's the only way I know its real.
OK, I'm not challenging what you want or what works for you. But I do have a question. What is "real submission" to you? I ask because I know whether Carol's submission is "real" because she submits. That is to say, I tell her to do stuff and she does. That's because "real submission" to me is rooted in actual behavior as opposed to mental states. So I'm curious how, exactly you see it that verifying it's "reality" is hard.



Females cannot have a valid opinion about males? LOL Alrighty then, we shall have to table the first part of your post, as I admit I don't qualify.

I'm fairly sure you're the couple that have been married for some time and then transitioned into D/s? (I so hope I am right this time, or I really will feel like an idiot.)

I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume that since you two have been married for some time, you have established a foundation of love, trust, and understanding. So that when you decided to ask Carol to submit to you, you knew when she said yes, it was a "real" yes. You knew that, b/c you know her.

When you don't know someone, however, you don't have that foundation of love, trust and understanding. It makes things in the beginning quite a bit different. Couple that with the fact that male subs are very different from fem subs, and I would say, you are now attempting to compare apples and oranges.

It has been my experience that although many men are sexually submissive, they themselves are only sub to get their kink on. (The typical do me sub) Once they get their rocks off, they revert back so fast it really will make your head spin.

First you need to determine the person really does want to submit to you, then you need to lay down that foundation of love, trust and understanding. This can be hard to do when so many male subs are so desperate for a fem domme they will do anything, say anything, agree to anything. Until you know that their behavior is based on what they really want to do, as opposed to what they feel compelled to do to please you (and not lose you), behavior does not necessarily mean that much.

As always, JMO, YMMV.



leadership527 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 2:56:21 PM)

Thanks ChatteParfaitt. I think your thoughts about the differences in our situations make sense. I've often wondered what it would be like to start a D/s relationship from scratch and I readily admit I know absolutely nothing about it. The following quote I think summed it up nicely.

Until you know that their behavior is based on what they really want to do, as opposed to what they feel compelled to do to please you (and not lose you), behavior does not necessarily mean that much.

I can absolutely understand how desperation and submission could be intermixed and yes, desperation really wouldn't work in the long-haul.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 2:59:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Thanks ChatteParfaitt. I think your thoughts about the differences in our situations make sense. I've often wondered what it would be like to start a D/s relationship from scratch and I readily admit I know absolutely nothing about it. The following quote I think summed it up nicely.

Until you know that their behavior is based on what they really want to do, as opposed to what they feel compelled to do to please you (and not lose you), behavior does not necessarily mean that much.

I can absolutely understand how desperation and submission could be intermixed and yes, desperation really wouldn't work in the long-haul.


No, desperation never does work in the long haul. And what is so sad is that I have seen male subs blow this major b/c they were incapable of pulling their head out of their own ass and realize they didn't need to be so desperate. The domme liked them, all they had to do was chill out and open up a bit. Easy to say, I know, and for some so hard to do.



Asherscorp1 -> RE: Value of submission (4/19/2011 5:16:26 PM)

I think TheShrew made a fantastic point. There is a tendency to focus on the work or effort in submission but I will be the first to say that every day I appreciate the effort my Master puts into His role. Former boyfriends (not in the lifestyle) have (with no little bit of validity) claimed that I am "impossible to please" "stubborn to a fault" "controlling" and "passive aggressive." Yep. If you don't know how to handle me I flawlessly pair a character that desperately desire to submit with the distrust and paranoia of someone who believes no one else can control a situation as well as I can. Talk about conflicted. And mixed messages. Fortunately Master understood me almost from the very beginning and since we never even tried to pursue a vanilla relationship problems that were huge before became non-existent. He simply did not allow me any chance to control anything. Submit or die. Lol. Needless to say I know that He puts a lot of work into my "training" "handling" and general emotional well-being. He told me once it was sort of like having a tiger by the tail, He'd better never let go.



Ariane23 -> RE: Value of submission (4/20/2011 1:34:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherscorp1

This question was inspired from my last post actually. I wanted to know from both a Dom and a sub's viewpoint do you think that a person who has to work harder to be subservient is more valued? Subs do you ever feel that obedience or subservience comes so easily that it's not truly appreciated? Doms do you ever get bored with a sub that is extremely submissive and accomodating and doesn't need to be "whipped into shape" as it were?


I like a sub who knows how to be submissive. If he's too much hard work, I don't regard him as really submissive and find another who is.



HannahLynHeather -> RE: Value of submission (4/20/2011 4:20:54 AM)

quote:

I wanted to know from both a Dom and a sub's viewpoint do you think that a person who has to work harder to be subservient is more valued?
no.
No.

quote:

Subs do you ever feel that obedience or subservience comes so easily that it's not truly appreciated?
No.

quote:

Doms do you ever get bored with a sub that is extremely submissive and accomodating and doesn't need to be "whipped into shape" as it were?
no.

hannah lynn & Heather



txurinal -> RE: Value of submission (4/23/2011 11:33:55 AM)

When i first met my MASTERS i worked hard at proving i would make a good slave if allowed to join THEIR household. i did not have to "work" at being subservient as i am definitely that by nature

24/7 did not mean lots of sex. i had more sex when loaned to THEIR friends than when at home.

Of course, i was taken for granted. It was taken for granted the house would be clean, the laundary would be done, and that i would obey orders without being"whipped" into shape and forcd to serve



juliaoceania -> RE: Value of submission (4/23/2011 7:31:33 PM)

From a personal point of view, I have noticed that what I struggle to get, I value more. If something comes too easily to me I do not value it as much. I know that isn't politically correct to say, but I am being honest.

So, while a dominant might not value me because I struggle with submission sometimes, I might value the relationship more because it has challenged me and I have invested more energy into it.

On side note: I think if one partner in a relationship does not feel they have to try hard to "get" the other person or to "keep" them, they tend to undervalue that person, at least at first. I do not know if that feeds into the question or not, but your OP made me think about it,



ResidentSadist -> RE: Value of submission (4/23/2011 7:51:23 PM)

quote:


Doms do you ever get bored with a sub that is extremely submissive and accomodating and doesn't need to be "whipped into shape" as it were?

Nope.  It's much better if they are experienced, talented and accommodating.  



BurntKitty -> RE: Value of submission (4/23/2011 8:16:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:


Doms do you ever get bored with a sub that is extremely submissive and accomodating and doesn't need to be "whipped into shape" as it were?

Nope.  It's much better if they are experienced, talented and accommodating.  


As in "I have no gag reflex?"

Was I thinking that aloud, or did I actually post that?[sm=oops.gif]



crazyml -> RE: Value of submission (4/24/2011 3:08:37 AM)

Gosh! Well it's a jolly good thing that in the very same post, I clarified things then, I'd hate to have the depth of my toolbox challenged!

<fans face>



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