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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/26/2011 4:21:46 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

ours not to question God . . . and all that.

Says who? And why not? He's questioned in the Bible!

K.



I don't question God as much as I question the endless parade of people who have translated it since it was written.


Endless? Unless your are a scholar who specializes in bible translations you are unlikely to have read bibles with more than 100 translators between you and the original languages.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/26/2011 5:02:02 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

ours not to question God . . . and all that.

Says who? And why not? He's questioned in the Bible!

K.



I don't question God as much as I question the endless parade of people who have translated it since it was written.


Endless? Unless your are a scholar who specializes in bible translations you are unlikely to have read bibles with more than 100 translators between you and the original languages.



I don't question God as much as I question the 100 people who have translated it since it was written.

Edited for the anal among us.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/1/2011 11:08:07 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
Faith is not meant to eclipse one's human reasoning. My Faith is in God and is easy to have because it is not based in the ideas about God by "mere" men presented here or elsewhere but in his words to me and they do not require leaving the reasoning mind he gave me behind in the conversation.


OK. But what reasoning processes lead you to conclude that the words you mention really do come from God?


Faith.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/1/2011 1:16:17 PM   
farglebargle


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Isn't "Faith" the flip side of "Reason"?

quote:

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
FIDES ET RATIO
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON



My Venerable Brother Bishops,
Health and the Apostolic Blessing!

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/1/2011 1:18:04 PM >


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/1/2011 6:20:25 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Isn't "Faith" the flip side of "Reason"?


I take it you mean religious Faith vs scientific Reasoning. If so then no. Faith is reasoning without evidence. Scientific reasoning is based upon empirical evidence and/or hypothesis testing, not upon revelation, personal experience or authority. Scientific reasoning is open to new evidence and will accept a change in the model being examined. Not sure you can say the same for theological faith.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/1/2011 6:22:25 PM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/1/2011 6:25:05 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Faith is reasoning without evidence.


Isnt that blind faith?

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/1/2011 7:37:41 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
Faith is not meant to eclipse one's human reasoning. My Faith is in God and is easy to have because it is not based in the ideas about God by "mere" men presented here or elsewhere but in his words to me and they do not require leaving the reasoning mind he gave me behind in the conversation.


OK. But what reasoning processes lead you to conclude that the words you mention really do come from God?


Faith.


" Faith always struck me as intellectual laziness" Robert Heinlein

< Message edited by Thirsty4Goddess -- 5/1/2011 7:39:28 PM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/1/2011 8:18:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

My Faith... is not based in the ideas about God by "mere" men presented here or elsewhere but in his words to me

Unh, lemme me get this straight... his words to YOU are different from his words to "mere men"?

K.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 9:40:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Faith is reasoning without evidence.


Isnt that blind faith?


I would think so. Isn't that the atheist objection? The blindness?

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 12:30:55 PM   
paulmcuk


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I'm afraid I haven't taken time to read all the replies so I'm probably repeating what others have said. However...

quote:

If evolution is true, then why didn't every cell continue to evolve?


Because every cell doesn't evolve all the time. Evolution, IS going on all the time, but not in the way you're thinking of it.

It's not the case that all cells are in a constant state of evolutionary flux. However, every time that genes are copied (e.g. when living things make babies) there is a chance that the copy won't be quite perfect (like when you photocopy something, there might be one letter that is a bit smudged). This is cell mutation.

Mutation is a loaded word and sounds bad but it isn't always so. It's just a change from what was there before. Cell mutation happens all the time and doesn't give you super powers. In fact, usually the mutation has no noticable effect at all. However, occasionally the mutation might make a noticible difference. The offsping might be bigger or stronger but it's important not to think of gross mutations like a llama suddenly turning into a giraffe. It's more likely to be quite subtle (a slightly longer beak, say) and might not be visible at all, such as a mutation which increases resistance to certain diseases.

So mutations happen. If the mutations create physical differences in some members of a species and those differences prove to be advantageous, then those born with the mutation prosper more, breed more, and so more of the species have that mutation (possibly completely wiping out the original form or also possibly splitting into two species). The problem with saying why don't sharks or frogs continue to evolve, is that we probably wouldn't know if they were. Evolution is often (not always - see Peppered Moth below) a very slow process. We know that sharks and frogs DID evolve because there are many types of sharks and frogs and the fossil records point to common ancestors. The fact is that they could well still be evolving, but it's a process that can take thousands or millions of years so we'd never notice.

The Peppered Moth is a nice example of evolution in action as it's a species that evolved twice within the space of a couple of hundred years, the changes being observed by humans. These moths were mostly white, which camoflaged them nicely against birch tress in Britain. Black moths were rare because, obviously they stood out on the trees and were easy prey. The mutation that made them black was a DISadvantage so they didn't proser as well as the whites. However, when the industrial revolution started, factories began spewing out so much soot that trees became blackened. The black mutation was suddenly an advantage and within a few generations, the black moths accounted for up to 98% of all Peppered Moths in the worst affected areas. Unfortunately for the blacks, the Clean Air Act was introduced which reduced the amount of soot being spewed out. Trees returned to their natural colour and white moths regained their advantage. Again, within a few generations they were in the majority.

It happens in humans too. The same mutant gene that causes the rather horrible Sickle Cell disease also protects against malaria. In countries with high incidence of malaria, the mutant gene has survived because it imparts greater survivability to the people who have it. Outside of those areas, the gene is incredibly rare because the protection is not needed and all it does is give people a nasty illness. This is why, generally, people of African descent get Sickle Cell while people of European descent don't - the mutation carried an advantage (on balance) in one area while being a complete disadvantage in the other.

There are other cases too. For example there is evidence to suggest that many of the survivors of the Black Death in Europe shared a genetic mutation. More recently, I know of at least one woman in Africa (a prostitute) who appears to have a genetic resistance to HIV/AIDS. She's been exposed hundreds of times and tests on her blood show that, in her, the virus just can't do it's normal trick of inflitrating the body. If there are more like her, their children may inherit Africa.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 5:18:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Faith is reasoning without evidence.


Isnt that blind faith?


I would think so. Isn't that the atheist objection? The blindness?



Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing.

But, hard as I try, I cannot find a definition for blind faith. Care to lead me in the proper direction?


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 5:34:28 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing.

That's "dictionarily" precise, but I think as a practical matter it might better be stated this way:

Faith is confidence in the value of a belief.

If one lacks confidence in the value of what one believes, if for example one lacks confidence in the value of people being sent to hell, but believes that they are nonetheless, then I think that might perhaps be called blind faith.

K.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 5:36:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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So blind faith would be the acceptance regardless of personal opinion?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 5:57:51 PM   
tweakabelle


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faith
mass noun

1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one's faith in politicians
2 strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
[count noun] a particular religion:
the Christian faith
[count noun] a strongly held belief:
men with strong political faiths

It would appear that meaning #2 is the relevant meaning here.


http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0285660#m_en_gb0285660

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 5:58:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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Yet, you have no proof it doesnt exist. Does that make yours a blind faith as well?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 7:04:23 PM   
tweakabelle


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If your questions are directed at me tazzy, it's not at all clear to me what they might be referring to. I have no idea what "it" in your first sentence refers to, not do I understand what "yours" in the question refers to either.

Edited to change 'question' to sentence

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/2/2011 7:29:29 PM >


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 7:11:13 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If your questions are directed at me tazzy, it's not at all clear to me what they might be referring to. I have no idea what "it" in your first question refers to, not do I understand what "yours" in the second refers to either.
Unicorns, I think. We have no proof Unicorns don't exist; therefore, unicorns exist. Or something like that. I dunno, I get dizzy watching believers chase their tails.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 9:05:45 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If your questions are directed at me tazzy, it's not at all clear to me what they might be referring to. I have no idea what "it" in your first question refers to, not do I understand what "yours" in the second refers to either.
Unicorns, I think. We have no proof Unicorns don't exist; therefore, unicorns exist. Or something like that. I dunno, I get dizzy watching believers chase their tails.



And I giggle at trolls who try to sound superior and fail


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 10:13:49 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If your questions are directed at me tazzy, it's not at all clear to me what they might be referring to. I have no idea what "it" in your first question refers to, not do I understand what "yours" in the second refers to either.
Unicorns, I think. We have no proof Unicorns don't exist; therefore, unicorns exist. Or something like that. I dunno, I get dizzy watching believers chase their tails.



Gee! You guys have it tough over there! We don't experience this kind of intolerance and bigotry by the religious here on anything like this scale.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-americans-still-dislike-atheists/2011/02/18/AFqgnwGF_story.html

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/2/2011 11:01:06 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Gee! You guys have it tough over there! We don't experience this kind of intolerance and bigotry by the religious here on anything like this scale.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-americans-still-dislike-atheists/2011/02/18/AFqgnwGF_story.html
Yep, all of us are perverts... *looks at what forum I'm on and grins*

Seriously though, it largely depends on where you live over here. Like Aus, the US is a big place, just a bit more crowded. That said, I live in California, which is nothing like living in the Bible Belt (where I grew up).

Other than one really annoying co-worker who somehow felt the need to leave religious tracts on my computer keyboard while I was at lunch (something I stopped dead when I got sick of throwing them away) and a few really zealous door to door folks on 'mission', I've rarely been inconvenienced let alone felt discriminated against.
Maybe that's just me and where I live, though.

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 5/2/2011 11:02:06 PM >


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