RE: Evolution vs. Religion

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thishereboi -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 3:24:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 It seems to me that everyone is trying to get the other side to change their mind, regardless of what side it is. No. I, as an atheist, just want theist to see that they believe in a deity, or a spirit, or "there must be something" simply because thinking that way feels good. Religion or spirituality is a coping mechanism. The human brain and the universe and whatever is beyond the known universe is amazing and intriguing enough for me. Even if we were to discover that everything we see was intelligently designed we would then have to search for what designed the designer. It is a mind boggling endeavor and to think you already know is self limiting.I think that the stress of not knowing is too much for some people and that is why spirituality evolved in us. Why do you want them to know that? What possible difference can it make to you whether some guy down the street believes in god or not? Now I can understand the guy down the street wanting you to believe, because he honestly thinks your soul is at risk, but what is the atheist trying to protect the believer from? Sorry, but you come off just like the holy rollers who have "seen the light" and want to share the good news. Only difference is the message you are preaching and the fact that you don't even offer any "ever after" in your deal. At least with the christians, I have something to look forward to[8D]

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:29:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou I think that the stress of not knowing is too much for some people and that is why spirituality evolved in us. This statement indicates and / or suggests that 1. You do not comprehend the evolution algorithm, and 2. apparently the spirituality function is lacking in you, and 3. apparently the spirituality awareness gen occurs in two forms: one dominant and the other recessive, which in the latter case results in a rudimentary or totally absent manifestation of the phenotype. Being genetically predisposed to something doesn’t mean that it is hard wired. Meaning there is no specific gene or genes completely responsible. It is partly genetic and partly learned. The partly genetic part is still just unproven theory. However I think that it will be proved eventually. And, you’re right I don’t fully comprehend the evolution algorithm. Neither do the people in that field of study. And, judging by your post, neither do you.

Rule -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:33:18 PM)
I will go out on a limb and speculate that there is a correlation between absence of spiritual awareness and a lack of comprehension.

bighappygoth39 -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:35:30 PM)
Absence of spiritual awareness beiong caused by a mitzvah, I take it?

tazzygirl -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:45:19 PM)
quote: No. I, as an atheist, just want theist to see that they believe in a deity, or a spirit, or "there must be something" simply because thinking that way feels good. Religion or spirituality is a coping mechanism. And what gives you the right to 1) make people "see that", 2) declare that its simply because it "feels good" and 3) tell others that it is only a coping mechanism?

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 It seems to me that everyone is trying to get the other side to change their mind, regardless of what side it is. No. I, as an atheist, just want theist to see that they believe in a deity, or a spirit, or "there must be something" simply because thinking that way feels good. Religion or spirituality is a coping mechanism. The human brain and the universe and whatever is beyond the known universe is amazing and intriguing enough for me. Even if we were to discover that everything we see was intelligently designed we would then have to search for what designed the designer. It is a mind boggling endeavor and to think you already know is self limiting.I think that the stress of not knowing is too much for some people and that is why spirituality evolved in us. Why do you want them to know that? What possible difference can it make to you whether some guy down the street believes in god or not? Now I can understand the guy down the street wanting you to believe, because he honestly thinks your soul is at risk, but what is the atheist trying to protect the believer from? Sorry, but you come off just like the holy rollers who have "seen the light" and want to share the good news. Only difference is the message you are preaching and the fact that you don't even offer any "ever after" in your deal. At least with the christians, I have something to look forward to[8D] I should have chosen my words more carefully. I don't care about the guy down the street specifically. I care about the evolution of society as a whole. I want us to get away from making laws based on something written in a book two thousand years ago. I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. . I'm interested in getting that kind of thinking into the collective consciousness. I don't think I'm going change anyone's mind who is fully invested in spirituality. I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense.

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:50:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule I will go out on a limb and speculate that there is a correlation between absence of spiritual awareness and a lack of comprehension. Don't go out too far, that limb is completely unsupported.

tazzygirl -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:51:28 PM)
Why do you believe people who believe in a spirituality dont think in a broader sense? I definitly take into consideration the cause and effect, the reactions surrounding my own actions, the cost of lawlessness on society as a whole. This... quote: I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. And this... quote: I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense. Are your opinions only... and come across as extremely judgemental.

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:53:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: No. I, as an atheist, just want theist to see that they believe in a deity, or a spirit, or "there must be something" simply because thinking that way feels good. Religion or spirituality is a coping mechanism. And what gives you the right to 1) make people "see that", 2) declare that its simply because it "feels good" and 3) tell others that it is only a coping mechanism? I say that it is a coping mechanism and feels good because there isn't a shred of credible evidence that it is anything else.

tazzygirl -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:55:49 PM)
And we are back to your opinion vs theirs. You have no credible shred of evidence that they are wrong... but you will lable them wrong all the same, demand that they slide to your side of the fence by demeaning and belittling what they believe in, all the while judging people who do not think like you as "less" and setting yourself as superior. Does that make you feel better when you do that? Is that your spirituality?

Rule -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 5:56:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bighappygoth39 Absence of spiritual awareness being caused by a mitzvah, I take it? I have no idea what a mitzvah is, so I do not know whether you can take it. Sorry. Perhaps someone with a restaurant will be able to tell you whether you can take it?

FullCircle -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 6:11:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Exactly. Everyone's experiences varies. Why are we so quick to discount an experience we have not experienced ourselves? We have to experience it for ourselves and we haven't. How is it that god chooses who sees the miracles? Surely the ones he has to convince are those with no faith? There is no point preaching to the converted they say. I've never really understood this idea that you have to have faith before you start seeing miracles happen around you. Going back to before anyone knew of religion or god there had to be someone with no faith that suddenly witnessed a miracle. So why is it different now? The more likely evolution of faith is that people needed to make sense of the world around them, built up this idea of the creator and then started to see everything around them as a miracle.

thishereboi -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 6:12:44 PM)
quote: I should have chosen my words more carefully. I don't care about the guy down the street specifically. I care about the evolution of society as a whole. I want us to get away from making laws based on something written in a book two thousand years ago. You do that by keeping religion and state separate. No need to stop religion for that. I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. . I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that[8\|] I'm interested in getting that kind of thinking into the collective consciousness. I don't think I'm going change anyone's mind who is fully invested in spirituality. I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense. Yea, good luck with that. Maybe you guys could give the tv evangelical route a try. It seems to have worked for some in the past.

Rule -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 6:29:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle How is it that god chooses who sees the miracles? Surely the ones he has to convince are those with no faith? The Divine never chooses: that would be interfering with free will and subvert the purpose of Creation. Neither does the Divine care whether some organism is a bacterium, a blade of grass, a religious nut or an atheist: the Divine is impartial, as to be partial would be interfering with free will and subvert the purpose of Creation. It is partial to communication, though - and it so happens that a human being - whether a religious nut or an atheist - is better at communication than a bacterium or a blade of grass. Now the pagan gods are another matter entirely: you bet that they are partial! quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle I've never really understood this idea that you have to have faith before you start seeing miracles happen around you. To have faith is to communicate with the Divine. Lost your keys? Have faith that you will find them and you are likely to. Or do not have faith and buy a new lock. quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle Going back to before anyone knew of religion or god there had to be someone with no faith that suddenly witnessed a miracle. So why is it different now? It isn't. People still loose their keys and find them again. quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle The more likely evolution of faith is that people needed to make sense of the world around them, built up this idea of the creator and then started to see everything around them as a miracle. Ask Dr. Who for a ride back. I bet that you will get religion very quickly when in 1800 BC you step on some pagan god's foot.

FullCircle -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 6:46:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule The Divine never chooses: that would be interfering with free will and subvert the purpose of Creation. The Devine prime directive? quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Neither does the Divine care whether some organism is a bacterium, a blade of grass, a religious nut or an atheist: the Divine is impartial, as to be partial would be interfering with free will and subvert the purpose of Creation. It is partial to communication, though - and it so happens that a human being - whether a religious nut or an atheist - is better at communication than a bacterium or a blade of grass. If the Devine don't care about the organism then the Devine could save themselves a lot of time. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule To have faith is to communicate with the Divine. Lost your keys? Have faith that you will find them and you are likely to. Or do not have faith and buy a new lock. That statement is absurd. Are you really going to attribute someone finding their keys with the Devine?

Rule -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 7:04:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle The Divine's prime directive? Indeed. Logic requires it. quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle If the Divine don't care about the organism then the Divine could save themselves a lot of time. The Divine is outside time, so neither does it care about time. quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle That statement is absurd. Quite. It is good that you have noticed that. Perchance you are experiencing a spiritual awakening. The Divine can respond to a communication only in a non-causal way, and since non-causality is weird to our way of thinking, it is indeed absurd. quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle Are you really going to attribute someone finding their keys with the Divine? That depends on how the keys are found. But in general: Everything that occurs in our universe happens because the Divine - if possible (some things are impossible) - enables such an event. Most events, however, are automatic reflexes.

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 7:20:33 PM)
quote: You have no credible shred of evidence that they are wrong... Well, if you don't understand the not having to prove a negative thing, then I am superior to you.

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 7:30:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: I should have chosen my words more carefully. I don't care about the guy down the street specifically. I care about the evolution of society as a whole. I want us to get away from making laws based on something written in a book two thousand years ago. You do that by keeping religion and state separate. No need to stop religion for that. State and religion is separate (in the U.S) and still laws are influenced by spiritual thinking. I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. . I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that[8\|] I don't know that you know that. And, I certainly don't know that "most" people know that. I'm interested in getting that kind of thinking into the collective consciousness. I don't think I'm going change anyone's mind who is fully invested in spirituality. I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense. Yea, good luck with that. Maybe you guys could give the tv evangelical route a try. It seems to have worked for some in the past. Nope, we'll just keep teaching science, math, ethics, and philosophy. As time goes on religion will fall away on it's own as it is in the process of doing.

Edwynn -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 7:55:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. quote: I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that I don't know that you know that. And, I certainly don't know that "most" people know that. Wow. You are one sick f#ck if you actually think that. I don't know who you grew up around, but I want nothing to do with any of you, suffice to say. You think that people are inherently imbued with worst of intentions? There's another thread devoted to that notion; http://www.collarchat.com/m_3645589/tm.htm I don't discriminate between religious zealots and atheistic wackos. I have no use for any of it, especially sick f#cks who think that doing harm to others is what we're born with and needs to be 'trained' against, by whatever method.

lickenforyou -> RE: Evolution vs. Religion (5/7/2011 8:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. quote: I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that I don't know that you know that. And, I certainly don't know that "most" people know that. Wow. You are one sick f#ck if you actually think that. I don't know who you grew up around, but I want nothing to do with any of you, suffice to say. You think that people are inherently imbued with worst of intentions? There's another thread devoted to that notion; http://www.collarchat.com/m_3645589/tm.htm I don't discriminate between religious zealots and atheistic wackos. I have no use for any of it, especially sick f#cks who think that doing harm to others is what we're born with and needs to be 'trained' against, by whatever method. You don't seem to be following the conversation very well.

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