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Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 7:06:31 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		The DHS decided that a local driving instructor had faked DL applications for a couple of Burmese students.  Why they have jurisdiction into this beats me.  So they notified the instructor.  And then they got the local DMV to invalidate all the DLs of his students.

I am not kidding.  http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17912544

Aren't these idiots supposed to be keeping our country safe instead of this kinda crap?

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 4/23/2011 7:27:02 AM >

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 7:25:05 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		What does a diving instructor have to do with driver's licenses?

Now pretending that the typo is fixed, that's a damn good question.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 7:55:30 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The DHS decided that a local driving instructor had faked DL applications for a couple of Burmese students.  Why they have jurisdiction into this beats me.  So they notified the instructor.  And then they got the local DMV to invalidate all the DLs of his students.

I am not kidding.  http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17912544

Aren't these idiots supposed to be keeping our country safe instead of this kinda crap?


How quickly we forget.  The 9/11 hijackers obtained drivers licenses and identification cards by presenting fraudulent information. 

That's why DHS is involved in the case you presented.

The 9/11 hijackers and driver's licenses




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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 9:28:14 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I have a right to travel.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 10:43:52 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		i don't get it. i took driver's ed privately and not though my high school, but i still had to go to the DMV to take the written test for my licence. i'm lost to how the teacher could have faked that, or how the school could have possibly known if he had. Does the teacher give the written portion of the driving test at the school? i'm confused.

Involving Homeland Security seems far fetched. If it's a question of cheating it was between the DMV, the students, and the teacher. If it's a question of the ethics in teaching, it's between the teacher, the students, and the school. Unless it's a question of terrorism, i don't see why Homeland Security had any place in it, and it appears that, having informed the teacher he's being charged with a crime, Homeland Security has failed to actually charge him, or at least they're taking their time doing so.

i think it's funny that they apparently revoked over a thousand licenses before they investigated (did they even investigate?).

The link has almost no real information. i don't know whether a crime was committed or not, or even whether they had reason to believe that it did.

Sorry, Steven, i can't fom an opinion on this one without more information than was given.

pam

ETA: Wait, he faked the "applications"? You mean, the paper where they fill out their name and address? Now i'm even more confused.

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 4/23/2011 11:15:04 AM >

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 11:02:03 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I started to post something... then I found this.

The letters from the Dept. of Revenue also said drivers must provide proof they completed both a written test and driving test and pay a reinstatement fee. All of the affected drivers took classes at the American Driving Academy. According to the driving school's website, classes are offered throughout Colorado.

The people who got the letters told 9NEWS their birthdates on the letters were incorrect. The letterhead was also dated, with former Colorado Governor Bill Ritter's name.

http://www.9news.com/rss/article/194689/75/Hundreds-of-licenses-revoked-indefinitely

Reinstatement fees for something the instructor did????

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 11:35:50 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		*What* did their instructor do? i still can't figure it out after reading tazzy's link. In it, the teacher appears to confess to doing the Burmese students tests for them...

"The Burmese were coming into my office in Arvada and i was doing their tests for them..."

and then the article goes on to say that the teacher denies the allegations. In my opinion, part of the problem is just really bad journalism.

The teacher appears to be guilty of *something*. It's unfortunate that Homeland Security got called in, and even more unfortunate that so many innocent people are being imposed on, but i can see why, from their point of view, they need to make sure everybody's legit. (Think of what would happen if one of the students got in an accident while driving with a licence he didn't really earn.)

Steven, i think they might be right on this one. i probably would have suspended those licenses too.

pam


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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 11:41:48 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I think you may have misread it, though its not well written.

Sieving said he was contacted by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security two months ago. He said officials were investigating the Burmese community. Sieving said Burmese students came to him for driving tests, and he has been accused of falsifying their paperwork.

"The Burmese were coming to my office in Arvada and I was doing their tests for them," Sieving told 9NEWS via phone Friday. "They said I just gave them the paperwork and I didn't give them an actual test."

Sieving denies the allegations and said he plans to hire an attorney. He said Homeland Security had not contacted him since and to his knowledge he has not been charged.

"They said the tests were illegal and fraud," said Sieving, who recently resigned as a driving instructor citing 'health reasons.'

As a result of the investigation, Sieving said the Colorado Department of Revenue revoked the licenses of every student he has instructed for the past two years.

"They said nobody took the written or the driving test," Sieving said. "I have proof I turned in my paperwork that I gave them the test."

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 11:51:37 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I have a right to travel.


Good Pahunk.

Enjoy your trip.

Send us a postcard.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 11:56:18 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

*What* did their instructor do? i still can't figure it out after reading tazzy's link. In it, the teacher appears to confess to doing the Burmese students tests for them...

"The Burmese were coming into my office in Arvada and i was doing their tests for them..."

and then the article goes on to say that the teacher denies the allegations. In my opinion, part of the problem is just really bad journalism.

The teacher appears to be guilty of *something*. It's unfortunate that Homeland Security got called in, and even more unfortunate that so many innocent people are being imposed on, but i can see why, from their point of view, they need to make sure everybody's legit. (Think of what would happen if one of the students got in an accident while driving with a licence he didn't really earn.)

Steven, i think they might be right on this one. i probably would have suspended those licenses too.

pam




1.  DHS should be watching out for terrorists.  If they believe that foreign students are being issued drivers' licenses fraudulently, they have no cause to have the state revoke all DLs.  Only those of suspected terrorists.
2. The federal government does not direct state governments.  Colorado had a right and responsibility to tell DHS to go to hell.
3. The Department of Revenue has a reason to believe that some DLs may have had irregularities.  To suspend ALL licenses means that the state has no burden of proof that the licenses are invalid.  That's bullshit - the paperwork has been filed and there is no reason to believe that all of them are fraudulent.  The state has not even made a convincing case that a single one is invalid.
4. At this point, the only thing the teacher is guilty of, is is arousing DHS' suspicions.  Innocent till proven guilty still means something to me.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 12:06:52 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Seems like they just want more money. Two years of revocations, and all these people must pay restitution.

Q I have given false affidavit or statement under oath to the department regarding ownership or operation of a motor vehicle?
A Perjury of false affidavit or statement



DEFINITION:

This revocation is taken if a person is convicted of perjury in the first or second degree or the making of a false affidavit or statement under oath to the Department under any law relating to the ownership or operation of a motor vehicle. The revocation is ordered for a period of one year.



REINSTATEMENT REQUIREMENTS:

Application for Reinstatement (DR2870) form
$95.00 reinstatement fee (check/money order payable to the Department of Revenue).
SR22 for 3 years from the date of reinstatement


TESTING:

A new license must be obtained by taking the eye, written and drive test.


http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/Revenue-MV/RMV/1218536116688

$95 dollars a person, the costs of retaking the driving course, plus the costs of retaking the tests, plus the SR22.

Thats just plain bullshit.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 12:33:58 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
1.  DHS should be watching out for terrorists.  If they believe that foreign students are being issued drivers' licenses fraudulently, they have no cause to have the state revoke all DLs.  Only those of suspected terrorists.

Agreed. But the DMV has the obligation investigate if they think the licenses are fraudulant. i think they would have done that anyway, with or without Homeland Security. It's what i would have done.

2. The federal government does not direct state governments.  Colorado had a right and responsibility to tell DHS to go to hell.

But not to tell the DMV to go to hell.

3. The Department of Revenue has a reason to believe that some DLs may have had irregularities.  To suspend ALL licenses means that the state has no burden of proof that the licenses are invalid.  That's bullshit - the paperwork has been filed and there is no reason to believe that all of them are fraudulent.  The state has not even made a convincing case that a single one is invalid.

i don't know what's in the local news there, but i can't tell that they don't have a case from the articles. i can't tell nearly anything from the articles.

4. At this point, the only thing the teacher is guilty of, is is arousing DHS' suspicions.  Innocent till proven guilty still means something to me.

Again, i don't know what's in the local news, but it appears from the article that he may have confessed outright to taking some of the students tests for them. i don't know if they were legally justified in suspending the licenses before the thing went to trial. And it's clear to me that anyone who's innocent shouldn't have to pay anything. But, then, they didn't revoke the licenses, merely suspend them, and that's probably a public safety issue. The state does have the burden of proof, but they may also have the responsibility of making sure no one gets killed in a car crash because of an unlicensed driver.


pam

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 1:37:46 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		They are accusing him of taking the tests for these burmese students, pam.

quote:

"We are investigating cases at this school and to ensure the public's safety we need to make sure the people who received these notices are properly tested," Couch said.

Drivers who received the notice are not legally allowed to drive until they can verify what tests they took with the DMV versus what tests they took with driving school.

"They need to be prepared to prove what they tests they took and where," Couch said.


And the burden of proof is on the drivers.

And, yes, they did revoke all those licenses.

quote:



Driving instructor accused of issuing false paperwork; 1,400 licenses revoked

As a result of the investigation, Sieving said the Colorado Department of Revenue revoked the licenses of every student he has instructed for the past two years.

.......

The letters from the Dept. of Revenue also said drivers must provide proof they completed both a written test and driving test and pay a reinstatement fee. All of the affected drivers took classes at the American Driving Academy. According to the driving school's website, classes are offered throughout Colorado.



http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/194689/346/Hundreds-of-licenses-revoked-indefinitely?odyssey=mod

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 4/23/2011 1:41:03 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 3:26:35 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The DHS decided that a local driving instructor had faked DL applications for a couple of Burmese students.  Why they have jurisdiction into this beats me.  So they notified the instructor.  And then they got the local DMV to invalidate all the DLs of his students.

I am not kidding.  http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17912544

Aren't these idiots supposed to be keeping our country safe instead of this kinda crap?



very simple, HLS is an acronym for ABSOLUTE POLICE STATE.

the real question is what is it when things are not what they appear to be?  what is it?


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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 4:07:59 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		who did the instructor p**s off so badly that he was turned into HLS???

I wonder if it was a competing driver training company playing dirty....

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 5:12:07 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline



quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They are accusing him of taking the tests for these burmese students, pam.

quote:

"We are investigating cases at this school and to ensure the public's safety we need to make sure the people who received these notices are properly tested," Couch said.

Drivers who received the notice are not legally allowed to drive until they can verify what tests they took with the DMV versus what tests they took with driving school.

"They need to be prepared to prove what they tests they took and where," Couch said.


And the burden of proof is on the drivers.

And, yes, they did revoke all those licenses.

quote:



Driving instructor accused of issuing false paperwork; 1,400 licenses revoked

As a result of the investigation, Sieving said the Colorado Department of Revenue revoked the licenses of every student he has instructed for the past two years.

.......

The letters from the Dept. of Revenue also said drivers must provide proof they completed both a written test and driving test and pay a reinstatement fee. All of the affected drivers took classes at the American Driving Academy. According to the driving school's website, classes are offered throughout Colorado.



http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/194689/346/Hundreds-of-licenses-revoked-indefinitely?odyssey=mod





"And the burden of proof is on the drivers."



In the US, it is constitutionally mandated that the burden of proof is on the accuser.

The state did indeed decree that the burden of proof is on the accused in this particular case, but, just to set things straight here ...

And if the licensees in question can in fact prove what Colorado is asking, why should they have to pay the $95, for a transgression that never occurred?

If the state cannot prove the legitimacy of licenses of  those attending that school by their own means, what does that say about their ability to ascertain legitimacy of licenses from any other school? If it is that easy for the state to say "well gee, we dunno actually, so everybody has to prove it now, because our protocol for ascertaining legitimacy is not up to the task,  and by the way, that'll be $95," that draws into question the legitimacy of every driver's license in Colorado.


The state can either figure it out or they can't. If the latter is the case, then it is unfair to charge others $95 apiece for the state's ineptitude, other than specific and legitimately proved cases of fraud.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/23/2011 5:39:42 PM >

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 5:27:31 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Okay, reading comprehension problems today. i also thought DHS referred to the high school, like "Denver High School", or something. i couldn't figure it out. i was like, why were they taking their driving test at the high school instead of the DMV, and why would the high school have called Homeland Security. Now i get it. DHS *is* homeland security. i guess that begs the question why Homeland Security got involved in the first place. Must remember to wake up before i post. Sorry, folks.

pam

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 7:38:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

And if the licensees in question can in fact prove what Colorado is asking, why should they have to pay the $95, for a transgression that never occurred?


Umm.. I was the one who pointed that out, Ed. And, yes, its wrong. They proved they were eligible by the standards, which allowed them to take the state test to begin with.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 7:51:03 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		...why is a centralized power controlling the state of CO?

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RE: Government out of control. And stupid. - 4/23/2011 7:53:22 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its the state of Colorado who revoked those licenses.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 20
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