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Awareness -> RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? (5/26/2011 11:56:03 PM)
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Christ, so much for edifying discussion. It did indeed peter out into cheap shots and mutual agreement. That's probably the first lesson for some people - there's more mileage in conflict than in insipidly agreeing with everyone.
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ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
I don't think it is true that "most people have contempt for racists." In fact, that's an interesting question. It would mean most people have contempt for themselves, for we are all "-ist" to some degree. Even the people who work toward greater understanding, who do their best to eliminate the tiniest kernels of prejudice in themselves are often able to maintain a certain understanding for people who are not able / choose not to eliminate it in themselves. That is not contempt, it is compassion, and it has to do with culture, time, age, and a myriad of other factors. This is a complex issue. The first problem is that there's a difference between racism and cultural warfare. Racism is xenophobia without limitations - to a certain extent it exists in us all - however it becomes 'racism' when one of us identifiably labels another as a racist. That is, it crosses a mystical threshold in the observer which leads them to make that value judgment.
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To bring it back to the question at hand, submissive men versus dominant men - the us vs them scenario set up within the OP. What is confusing(?) for me is this. I see the two very much in the same way. You (men, not you specifically) are men. You are socialized in similar ways, your brains and bodies work in similar ways, your goals are similar. Where is room for contempt? Indeed, where is the room for contempt in any of us? Yet it exists in us all with the common, shared notion that there exists sufficient justification in our own minds.
Indeed, there is a particular irony in some people vilifying my honesty, but using my beliefs as justifying their contempt for me. The abject hypocrisy of this is apparently lost on them. In a lifestyle in which moral judgments are normally - for the most part - suspended, the reality that underneath it all everyone's just acting in self-interest is probably too much of a reality check for them to process.
There was very little exploration of my reasons - those simply weren't required, because the actual desire wasn't understanding but vilification and to silence the one voice in their midst which didn't join the general chorus of agreement. The level of group-think is staggering but ironic for people who like to portray themselves as such free thinkers.
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To my mind - and I could be wrong - this is not a place for contempt so much as an understanding that there are different places on the same continuum, and each group generally clusters at one end or the other. Don't both of you want to be in relation with your women in a way that pleases you and your partner? The thing here is you're positing your own rationales, not inquiring into mine. I'm not fussed, there's very few capable of reasoned debate here, but you're unlikely to gain insight into someone's mind by commencing with your own viewpoint.
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[:)]Oh, I've no need for simply mutual admiration societies - mutual respect yes (I may be splitting hairs, but to my mind it is an important distinction). I have great respect for a number of people I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with. I don't want to stop the debate. How ever will I clarify my own viewpoint? How will I learn? How will I teach others if all I do is say, "oh yes, yes yes." It's true, if we all agree, what fun is that? How can we possibly interact in any but the most shallow of ways? When people become friends, they often suspend critical judgment. As an example here, people frequently excuse behaviour from their friends which they publicly denounce in newbies. When called on this, they pull together the most outlandish justifications. That's a mutual admiration society. That's a clique. If you can't call your friends on their bullshit, then you're a sycophant. I don't roll that way and I simply do not respect people who do.
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