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New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/1/2011 11:35:29 PM

Whatfun

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2011
Status: offline

I am brand new to this. My new boyfriend is an experienced Dom and he has made me aware that I'm a natural Sub. He's breaking me in slowly and I love being told what to do, being used as an object and pleasing him in general. I'm a bit scared about some of the "pain" aspects of this, and I'm not sure if I will like it or not (but will soon find out).

My questions to you Doms out there are - 1) would you prefer that a sub be very obedient and never deserving of punishment or a bit disobedient so you have the pleasure of punishing her? 2) Also, I'm getting the impression that I'll be flogged whether I'm obedient or not (probably moreso if I'm not) - but in case I don't like it much would obedience lead you to do it less? 3) Lastly, do you care if your sub likes punishment or not - in other words, do you prefer a sub who gets off on it or one who doesn't like it but takes it anyway to please you?

Post #: 1

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 12:20:54 AM

AneNoz

Posts: 263
Joined: 4/26/2011
Status: offline

quote:

1) would you prefer that a sub be very obedient and never deserving of punishment or a bit disobedient so you have the pleasure of punishing her?

Of course it is to be preferred that the submissive be well behaved. To obey is the primary function of a slave or submissive. To my thinking punishment should never bring pleasure to either party, it is a bad thing to have to punish.

quote:

2) Also, I'm getting the impression that I'll be flogged whether I'm obedient or not (probably moreso if I'm not) - but in case I don't like it much would obedience lead you to do it less?

This, of course, will depend on the actual style of yourself and your Master. For my Beloveds and I, flogging is not punishment, it is a reward. I find it unfair to use something as punishment, and yet to inflict it when there has been no transgression as well. Myself I question the experience of your Master. If he enjoys to flog you, he should simply do so when he desires, and use another unpleasantry as punishment.

quote:

3) Lastly, do you care if your sub likes punishment or not - in other words, do you prefer a sub who gets off on it or one who doesn't like it but takes it anyway to please you?

My sadism finds fulfillment in the suffering of masochists. Torture is a pleasure for my Beloveds and I. It brings joy to us all. I find no pleasure in inflicting pain on one who finds no pleasure in it.

Be at peace
Aneka

(in reply to Whatfun)

Post #: 2

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 1:24:21 AM

hematitan

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/25/2010
Status: offline

Not a dom, but I think what's important here is to have some agreement on what "punishment" is, and what "disobediance" is. A lot of people differentiate between punishment that's actually meant to correct misbehavior and "punishment" (or funishment) that's actually a game. Likewise, what constitutes disobedience is going to vary somewhat. Some doms enjoy some play resistance or cheekiness from their subs, and pretending to punish them in return. Some don't. In general, I think most doms would rather have obedience when it comes to serious rules, and most doms don't want to have to punish their subs for misbehavior (and if they did, I would kind of wonder about that. Why would you want conflict or failure in your relationship?). This is something that's going to depend on you and your dom, and the relationship you guys have. But I think mutual understanding is important. Things like "acting out" to be punished or a dom putting their sub in a position that will lead to punishment can be a lot of fun if both understand what's going on and like that type of play. Otherwise, it can just seem frustrating, unfair, or manipulative.

Actual punishments are not generally supposed to be enjoyable. If your dom wants flogging to be something you guys do for fun, then it might be best to separate that from punishment or at least make punishment flogging different in some way.

(in reply to AneNoz)

Post #: 3

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 1:42:35 AM

MaxsBoy

Posts: 766
Status: offline

You're new, so I'm wondering if you've heard the term "funishment"? It refers to "punishments" that aren't a result of any wrongdoing on the part of the sub, but rather are used as an excuse to play. Funishments are great, as long as they're part of the dynamic you both agreed on. Serious punishment is something entirely different and, in my dynamic at least, is something to be avoided. My Alpha would be very disappointed in me if I were to deliberately disobey to earn a punishment. He also wouldn't set me up for a failure that would earn a real punishment. Either situation would damage the trust that our relationship is based upon. If I feel the need for a little pain play, I make that known to him (sometimes with a flat-out request, sometimes a little playful "badness" that is obviously meant to be playful, and is done when he is in the mood for such antics). If he's in the mood to hurt me he just does it - he's in charge, so why would he need to make up some sort of excuse for playing with his favorite toy? Likewise, if he wants to be hurt (which he sometimes does) he just directs me to hurt him.

I think your best course of action is to ask him directly what he expects of you, and to make sure he knows that he doesn't need to come up with an excuse to play with you. As for the pain aspect, that's individual. Some people don't do pain play at all, some do extreme pain play all the time, and everything in between. Talk it out with him, set your safewords, and have fun experimenting together.

_____________________________

~Fox~

Packmate of Max

Fukin Trollop, whipping boi, and unapologetic uberslut

I can't shake this feeling in my head
There's a Devil sleeping in my bed

(in reply to hematitan)

Post #: 4

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 4:11:07 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

What they said.

I'm a Dom. If I want to spank or flog my submissive, I will. The fact that I want to is sufficient justification.

Legitimate punishment is not enjoyable. If a Dom makes a sub think she failed him because he doesn't think HS can spank her otherwise, he's no Dom.

Of course, as the others said, funishment is something else, when a Dom makes it known that he's not really angry.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to MaxsBoy)

Post #: 5

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 5:17:50 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

It sounds as though he's a sadist. Which is fine. The question is whether or not you are a masochist or if you are willing to suffer through some pain for his pleasure. And this is entirely your decision.

We don't have a punishment dynamic. It doesn't work for us. He doesn't want to be the bad guy and I don't want to have to fear him.

We don't do much pain play because neither of us is that into it. He's into nipple torture and spanking but he doesn't need to go beyond the limit of what I can handle. Some guys do. We're both into bondage and sex.

The important thing here is that we are both on the same page. It is important that you two are compatible also. And you need a lot more communication with him before you can make that decision.

Do you agree that he should be able to declare you in need of punishment whenever he wants even without explaining what you did wrong?
Do you agree with him that what you did was wrong or is he giving out rules you cannot agree to?
Are you able to talk to him freely or are you punished non-consensually for disagreeing with him?
If he goes too far will he stop when you need him to?
Will he not do things that you have said you cannot agree to or does he use the excuse of punishment for doing them anyway?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 6

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 5:45:28 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whatfun

1) would you prefer that a sub be very obedient and never deserving of punishment or a bit disobedient so you have the pleasure of punishing her?

a) Depends on your definition of obedient.

b) If you mean her forgetting her place, then I demand obedience.

c) Will I take pleasure in punishing her for such a transgression? Of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whatfun

2) Also, I'm getting the impression that I'll be flogged whether I'm obedient or not (probably moreso if I'm not) - but in case I don't like it much would obedience lead you to do it less?

Yes. The idea being that punishment leaves a lasting impression and steers you towards not making the same mistake.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whatfun

3) Lastly, do you care if your sub likes punishment or not - in other words, do you prefer a sub who gets off on it or one who doesn't like it but takes it anyway to please you?

a) I care out of curiosity about her disposition.

b) I conjure up punishments that she really doesn't like at all.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Whatfun)

Post #: 7

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 6:11:13 AM

thedavezone

Posts: 113
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: South Korea
Status: offline

I like a little playful disobedience, but I'd still work with pain - it would just be more fun for ME.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 8

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 12:13:57 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whatfun
1) would you prefer that a sub be very obedient and never deserving of punishment or a bit disobedient so you have the pleasure of punishing her?

Not all dominants are sadists. I get no pleasure from punishing Carol so for me it's just "obey". In addition, we have an obedience based dynamic that is TPE and what that means is that she must obey all the time. If she was disobedient it'd be the end of our dynamic.

You might also note that few dominants report any pleasure from punishing their sub. Punishment generally indicates a problem in the relationship and when there's a problem then generally nobody is happy. The term that is used for pretend punishment that is really just "play" is "funishment" (don't you just love that word?)

quote:

2) Also, I'm getting the impression that I'll be flogged whether I'm obedient or not (probably moreso if I'm not) - but in case I don't like it much would obedience lead you to do it less?

I'm not a sadist. If you're partner IS a sadist then you need to understand that how "much" this happens is a basic life happiness thing for him. If it's an "unhappiness" thing for you then there's a problem. In an ideal world, things that make your partner happy would be in the "do as much as possible" category. As above, I strongly urge you to separate out SM play from punishment.

quote:

3) Lastly, do you care if your sub likes punishment or not - in other words, do you prefer a sub who gets off on it or one who doesn't like it but takes it anyway to please you?

Why would I care if she likes punishment? More to the point, why would she EVER like punishment? If she likes it then it's not very punishing, is it? In general, Carol and I have a very tight bond. Generally it is not enough for me to "do it to please me". If I want something, I want her to want it to and I give commands to that effect. For Carol and I, the related example would be something like this. I have a higher sex drive than her which frequently means I'm saying "go" and she's saying "no". In that circumstance, I generally don't want her to just humor me. So the command she gets isn't, "Lay down and spread your legs." It's more like, "I'm thinking about sex later on mine. Get yourself in the mood."

Overall, it sounds like you are into submission but not masochism. Yes, there are guys who are into dominance and not sadism. Not all dynamics include a punishment component. As you correctly figured out, if you have total obedience then punishment is pointless. I'd urge you to be careful about your thoughts on pain though. If your dominant is experienced, he'll know that you need to be brought there one step at a time. Carol's not a masochist but we are exploring some light (or maybe not so light) pain play. For her, when she's already wildly turned on then suddenly the pain becomes a very different thing. Be sure you have an open mind about it and don't just go in with preconceived notions that pain is bad. It's not always even if you're not a huge pain slut.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Whatfun)

Post #: 9

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 12:28:00 PM

Whatfun

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2011
Status: offline

Thanks all for your replies. I hadn't heard of "funishment" and now that you've described it to me, that is what I really was asking about.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 10

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 12:30:15 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

You might also note that few dominants report any pleasure from punishing their sub. Punishment generally indicates a problem in the relationship and when there's a problem then generally nobody is happy.

The latter statement does not necessarily follow the former.

Presumably we're all working towards a goal, and when a transgression threatens that goal then of course it is a problem for all concerned.

This however has no bearing on whether or not you take pleasure in administering punishment.

You are left in a position where punishment has to be metered out. You have a choice from this position: enjoy it or don't.

I don't agree with the 'if you have to punish then the relationship has failed and you shouldn't enjoy it' school of thought.

I go with 'no one is perfect and in the event she is going to make my life more difficult than it should be, which is possible on the grounds of her being a human being complete with flaws like the rest of us, then I'm going to make her life much more difficult and enjoy it in the process'.

And, it certainly isn't 'funishment' for me.

And if it helps, I'm well versed in the principles of Sun Tzu: the art of war is a love of peace and prosperity of which war is to be avoided at all costs but is on occasion regrettable but necessary.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 11

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 12:45:50 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

*chuckles* I readily bow to the opinion of someone who actually IS a sadist. It's not hard to imagine your viewpoint and how it'd work out. My comment came from hearing other sadists say that they didn't enjoy punishment but just as obviously, some do.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 12

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 12:52:20 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*chuckles* I readily bow to the opinion of someone who actually IS a sadist. It's not hard to imagine your viewpoint and how it'd work out. My comment came from hearing other sadists say that they didn't enjoy punishment but just as obviously, some do.

I certainly don't expect you to bow to my opinions: it's a discussion board as opposed to an arena for competition and 'bowing' in barbed fashion.

My comment was around:

a) Your view that 'few' dominants enjoyed administering punishment.

b) The reason you gave.

You haven't addressed this.

P.S. My position has nothing to do with sadism.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 13

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 1:47:25 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I'm having trouble with that last, NG. It appears as though someone who was not a sadist, and did not enjoy inflicting pain would somehow come to enjoy it if it were a punishment instead of for his own pleasure. Care to explain?

And as a sub, I would steer clear of any guy who said he did enjoy giving out punishments. Because the urge then is to give them for minor things in order to have the enjoyment. And when the sub is getting punished for walking two and a half steps behind instead of three exactly, or for taking 30 seconds longer than he thought it ought to take to refill his coffee, that is setting someone up for failure which is not a good thing. As eventually the sub will come to understand that no matter how much he/she strives, it won't matter, he will just find more excuses to punish.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 14

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 2:37:39 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm having trouble with that last, NG. It appears as though someone who was not a sadist, and did not enjoy inflicting pain would somehow come to enjoy it if it were a punishment instead of for his own pleasure. Care to explain?

No problem.

Firstly, I think we should be humble because anybody could be wrong - reference to Leadership's bowing issue.

Secondly, to rely only on diplomacy or only on punishment is to blind ourselves unnecessarily. Deeds of peace and harmony should be backed with steel in practice as opposed to idealism in theory.

To put some meat on the bones:

a) My principles have been compromised.

b) Now I have to expend energy and time when I could be undertaking preferred options.

c) What is the best way to prevent this happening again and conserve time and energy further down the line: punish reluctantly or punish with gusto in order to make the point that you are going to give with relish past, present and future; in other words, it's in her interests to tow the line?

In the interests of context, I don't punish providing her desire and commitment is 100%.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/2/2011 2:39:47 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 15

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 3:44:28 PM

Palliata

Posts: 371
Joined: 8/9/2010
Status: offline

I am an avowed sadist. I don't usually enjoy punishment, but it does sometimes get me all hot and bothered. When it occurs I think of it as a personal failure - if we reach the point where I must employ physical force then I have clearly not inspired the proper behavior to begin with. That said, if something needs to be corrected I will do so.

quote:

1) would you prefer that a sub be very obedient and never deserving of punishment or a bit disobedient so you have the pleasure of punishing her?

Complete obedience is the goal. When I was younger I preferred the bratty, rebellious thing that led to punishment, but that was before I really accepted myself as a sadist and gave myself permission to cause pain purely for my own enjoyment. I liked it because it gave me the chance to be sadistic without having to really admit to myself that that was what I wanted.

quote:

2) Also, I'm getting the impression that I'll be flogged whether I'm obedient or not (probably moreso if I'm not) - but in case I don't like it much would obedience lead you to do it less?

It certainly would. If you're obedient, I'll hurt you only to the degree that entertains me at the time (within the proper boundaries and blah blah blah) whereas if you disobey things will be far worse because I'll have to hurt you to the degree which attains the desired result.

quote:

3) Lastly, do you care if your sub likes punishment or not - in other words, do you prefer a sub who gets off on it or one who doesn't like it but takes it anyway to please you?

I care, but it isn't necessarily going to change my behavior that much. I enjoy hurting, and if they don't enjoy being hurt then they either A) learn to accept it or B) find another playmate. If they enjoy their actual punishments that's going to be a problem that will need to be worked around, whether that comes in the form of altering the mode of punishment, the method, or simply the severity, but that isn't really more than a minor annoyance.

_____________________________

I speak not of The Way, but only My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

I'm male. I know it sounds female. Work with me.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 16

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/2/2011 4:09:45 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

First of all Master doesn't need an excuse to do what he wants with me. If he wants me in pain then that's what he does. He doesn't need me to be disobedient to do that. He just simply does it because he feels like it.

Second, if I'm getting off on it then it's not punishment for us, it's just play.

Master wants obedience, plain and simple.

(in reply to Palliata)

Post #: 17

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/3/2011 2:28:45 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

When it occurs I think of it as a personal failure - if we reach the point where I must employ physical force then I have clearly not inspired the proper behavior to begin with.

Perhaps this is a factor underpinning the various ways of looking at this.

It's not for me to take on board responsibility for her actions without due consideration.

The starting point is that she considers her actions. In the event she believes the root of the problem lies in my behaviour, then she's well within her rights to put a case forward and I'll consider it. I expect her to act responsibily during such consideration, rather than attempt to deflect responsibility.

So, the responsibilty lies with her, as do the consequences.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Palliata)

Post #: 18

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/3/2011 4:04:22 AM

Palliata

Posts: 371
Joined: 8/9/2010
Status: offline

Don't mistake me - it is extremely important that she acknowledge her part in the issue. At the end of the day it was her choices which led to the issue of disobedience. That being said, those choices sprang from a decision-making paradigm which was configured to allow for such disobedience. My role as her master is to configure that in such a way as to make obedience something outside the realm of possibility.

This isn't something which is likely to exist in complete perfection, and in the case that it fails I don't sit up at night crying, but I also make every attempt to correct the process rather than simply correcting the individual behaviors, and I acknowledge, to myself at the very least, that her failures are also my failures. Look at it this way: If your dog bites someone, you punish and blame the dog in some sense, but you also take personal responsibility and acknowledge that if you had done your job as its owner correctly that would never have happened in the first place.

_____________________________

I speak not of The Way, but only My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

I'm male. I know it sounds female. Work with me.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 19

RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 5/3/2011 5:37:52 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

Don't mistake me - it is extremely important that she acknowledge her part in the issue. At the end of the day it was her choices which led to the issue of disobedience. That being said, those choices sprang from a decision-making paradigm which was configured to allow for such disobedience. My role as her master is to configure that in such a way as to make obedience something outside the realm of possibility.

This isn't something which is likely to exist in complete perfection, and in the case that it fails I don't sit up at night crying, but I also make every attempt to correct the process rather than simply correcting the individual behaviors, and I acknowledge, to myself at the very least, that her failures are also my failures. Look at it this way: If your dog bites someone, you punish and blame the dog in some sense, but you also take personal responsibility and acknowledge that if you had done your job as its owner correctly that would never have happened in the first place.

I understand and take your point; I'm simply a bit further along the spectrum.

Using your analogy: the dog does not have the capacity to use his/her reason in the same way a human being does, which ensures the dog is afforded leeway to a greater extent.

You (general you) can do your job as an owner, while at the same time something can go wrong; they're not mutually exclusive.

You (general you) can never control all of the factors that influence her behaviour. I take responsibility for the factors within my sphere of influence, which leads me to not automatically taking responsibility. It's up to her to come to me with a case, rather than assume the responsibility lies with me.

I think this is a balanced approach and one I feel is in accord with a progressive relationship. Both of us are going to makes mistakes from time to time; I'm confident I can assess my actions and take responsibility when and where it's due; it's up to her to assess her actions. If she seeks guidance, then that's fine with me: I have a lot of time for someone wanting to learn. This assumes your (general your) woman is a full functioning human being who has been through life's trials and tribulations and holds the experience and wherewithal to act as a rational human being (I for one will not entertain a woman who believes she is not responsible for her actions).

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Palliata)

Post #: 20

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