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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 1:27:21 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Are you sure that you can rationalise a manichean argument like that purely through recourse to a vague reference to psychology?
No offense, but that does sound a bit like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. If something's caused by faulty neural wiring, then there's no need to describe it in abstract terms like "evil", dig?

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 1:37:25 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I inserted the word 'presumably' because conceivably other universes might have been existed before our two, though I consider that unlikely, unless they were (a) try out universe(s). I rather think that the extrapolation from the pagan Creator in Egyptian mythology is correct: only our universes exist.


So there may be more than one? Maybe many? Maybe still? Maybe mass/energy is eternal and no creator is required? So, your foundation for the categorical statement is . . . . Egyptian mythology. Sheesh!

One other thing I am curious about from your earlier comments. You said the Divine Dude created the Universe(s) because he was lonely but not human lonely. So there is a Divine Dude kind of lonely? Then you said there are pleanty of lovely chics around. So, what am I to draw from those comments? Is the Dude an incubus who boinks lovely chics at night while they are asleep? Does the Dude have a Divine penis then? I know better than to ask you if it is circum . . never mind! OTOH, does he just hang out and watch them in the shower? How does the Divine Dude overcome the Divine Loneliness?

Egyptian Mythology. really?

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 1:40:06 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Are you sure that you can rationalise a manichean argument like that purely through recourse to a vague reference to psychology?
No offense, but that does sound a bit like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. If something's caused by faulty neural wiring, then there's no need to describe it in abstract terms like "evil", dig?


Well really, it wasn't cake that Jeffrey was eating. And yes I understand that in questioning free will in some behaviors I am questioning the concept of evil.

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 1:41:19 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You said the Divine Dude created the Universe(s) because he was lonely but not human lonely. So there is a Divine Dude kind of lonely?

Of course there is: haven't you ever seen any episodes of Doctor Who where David Tennant spends the best part of an hour whining that he hasn't got any friends?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 1:45:25 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Are you sure that you can rationalise a manichean argument like that purely through recourse to a vague reference to psychology?
No offense, but that does sound a bit like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. If something's caused by faulty neural wiring, then there's no need to describe it in abstract terms like "evil", dig?


Well really, it wasn't cake that Jeffrey was eating. And yes I understand that in questioning free will in some behaviors I am questioning the concept of evil.

Fair enough. I'd always been led to believe that if you're having evil as an abstract in its own right, then it isn't of human origin and it's from out there somewhere. As you say, that's at odds with any notion of free will.

That's probably one answer to the OP in any case: people want there to be a God because it means they can avoid having to accept any responsibility for their actions. Being able to claim that the Devil made you do whatever vile thing you fancied doing instead of admitting that it was something you dreamed up by yourself is definitely part of the package.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 2:25:11 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So there may be more than one?

There most certainly are two, but that is a package deal. I dunno about any other universes, for reason of lack of evidence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Maybe still?

There is no time as we know it beyond our package deal. So the question is meaningless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Maybe mass/energy is eternal and no creator is required?

There are universal laws of conversation of energy and of mass - but you ought to know that already. I dunno beyond that, though.

I deduced the existence of the Divine, so that last question also is meaningless - unless someone can convincingly argue that the universe arose in another way than the one that I deduced. (I am confident that no-one can.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, your foundation for the categorical statement is . . . . Egyptian mythology. Sheesh!

Egyptian Mythology. really?

Yep. That and fractal theory. (If you are unfamiliar with the latter mathematical concept, then look it up on Wikipedia.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
One other thing I am curious about from your earlier comments. You said the Divine Dude created the Universe(s) because he was lonely but not human lonely. So there is a Divine Dude kind of lonely?

Presumably.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Then you said there are plenty of lovely chics around. So, what am I to draw from those comments? Is the Dude an incubus who boinks lovely chics at night while they are asleep? Does the Dude have a Divine penis then? OTOH, does he just hang out and watch them in the shower?

Yep, it is watching in the shower. In fact it is observing everywhere. The 'outside' of our universe is after all is removed less than an infinitesimal small part of the diameter of an electron; actually it is in perpetual contact with all particles in our universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
How does the Divine Dude overcome the Divine Loneliness?

I dunno. I am open to any suggestions. Religions appear to suggest that is does so thanks to spiritual communications?



< Message edited by Rule -- 5/8/2011 2:28:34 PM >

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 5:32:25 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceGuyNihilist

For me, one of life's greatest consolations is that there doesn't seem to be any purpose behind its misery. I can forgive the universe for accidentally creating life--indeed, there's nothing to forgive. But to forgive someone for deliberately doing so? Never.

You could say that atheism has allowed me to make peace with God.



I tend to leave it more as an open question, since there's no real way of knowing these answers with any factual certainty.

But to forgive God for creating life? That's an interesting question. I consider myself more agnostic than atheist.

My friend considers himself an atheist, but I remember a couple of times, he got on a tirade against God - not disbelief, but outright hatred and frustration. I thought it was kind of interesting that he was so angry at something he didn't believe existed. I've also felt somewhat the same way at times.

I wonder if it's the way God is portrayed to people. Even beyond the question of whether or not God exists and what the meaning of the universe is (questions which are unknowable, in and of themselves), there's so much extraneous material that goes along with religious doctrine.

I often would hear things like "Jesus loves you" and that "God will always hear your prayer." When we refer to God, we might say "Our Father" and put Him in a parental role. They say that God is always watching us and that he's making a list and checking it twice. Kind of like Santa Claus, except with God, if you're bad, you get much worse than a lump of coal in your stocking. He knows what's inside your heart, as they say.

Sometimes, I wonder if that builds up false hopes and expectations. After all, I might expect my own dad to listen to me, and sometimes he would even grant my requests. So, I can see where if someone prays to God and doesn't feel that their prayer has been answered, then one might ask, "Well, what happened, Dad?" So, it might lead to deep disappointment and frustration.

So, the question of whether God exists might not really be relevant when compared with all the other stuff that goes with the general package. One could also make peace with God by disregarding these ideas that he actually loves us, hears our prayers, or cares one whit about the goings on down here on Earth.






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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/8/2011 5:40:24 PM   
Rule


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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:33:09 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

That's probably one answer to the OP in any case: people want there to be a God because it means they can avoid having to accept any responsibility for their actions. Being able to claim that the Devil made you do whatever vile thing you fancied doing instead of admitting that it was something you dreamed up by yourself is definitely part of the package.


Moon, not everyone who believes in God believes in the Devil, so not all refuse to accept responsibility for themselves. A variant that seems to be most common (apocryphal) are those death row prisoners who accept responsibility when they are reborn and have their evil deeds forgiven by the sacrifice of the lamb, Jesus.

I haven't read through the thread (too busy at bible study ) so I may be repeating here. From early prehistory man (generic) has always been confronted with a mystery when looking at the dead body of a friend/loved one, etc, ie where the fuk did Grandpa Harry (or Grandpa Zork) go? Man is blessed/cursed with this wonderful creative imagination. Grandpa Harry is not here. Musta gone someplace. Can't find him (looking about with hand shading eyes) So, Grandpa Harry/Zork left his body and is wandering about in the woods. Gotta keep him happy. Don't get him pissed at us. Best to leave him part of our dinner at the edge of the woods. Well, you can see the rest, can't you? Grandpa in the woods became God in the sky. An anthropological answer to the OP. Just sayin . . . .

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:37:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

So, the question of whether God exists might not really be relevant when compared with all the other stuff that goes with the general package. One could also make peace with God by disregarding these ideas that he actually loves us, hears our prayers, or cares one whit about the goings on down here on Earth.


OTOH, you might say that atheism allows one to make peace with Death, which is a far more salient reality than God.

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:42:29 AM   
Rule


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If you thought of that yourself, it is very bad, but at least then you put some effort into it.

If you copied that, whether verbatim or non-verbatim, it is even worse.

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/9/2011 5:43:14 AM >

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:44:31 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Moon, not everyone who believes in God believes in the Devil, so not all refuse to accept responsibility for themselves. A variant that seems to be most common (apocryphal) are those death row prisoners who accept responsibility when they are reborn and have their evil deeds forgiven by the sacrifice of the lamb, Jesus.

Most people do believe in some opposite number as well, though: Christ is pretty well redundant without the notion of sin, after all.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:48:51 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Are you referring to the mystery of death? Where did the living person go? Ancestor worship is a pretty standard and recognized phenomenon among primatives as well as whole nations. I doubt the Japanese would appreciate your laughing at their beliefs. I tried to explain it so even you would understand.

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:53:50 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		So you copied that.

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:55:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Moon, not everyone who believes in God believes in the Devil, so not all refuse to accept responsibility for themselves. A variant that seems to be most common (apocryphal) are those death row prisoners who accept responsibility when they are reborn and have their evil deeds forgiven by the sacrifice of the lamb, Jesus.

Most people do believe in some opposite number as well, though: Christ is pretty well redundant without the notion of sin, after all.


Yeh, it is kinda confusing. People who don't believe in the Devil, take responsibility for their own misdeeds, but also believe in salvation through Jesus' sacrifice. Evidently, taking responsibility is not sufficient. Well, probably best understood that Jesus sacrifice was a mystical event and over-rides any mortal event in efficacy for salvation. Still a debate of how sin is truly absolved, eg: good works vs belief.

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 5:59:18 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

So you copied that.


Depends what you mean by copied. Have I read anthropology and absorbed ideas from my reading? Of course. Don't we absorb ideas from our readings and reformulate them? Analysis and synthesis. You have never done that? Everyone of your ideas are original? Nahhhhh. . .

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 6:33:04 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I think he might have come up with that "everybody with no foreskin is jewish" notion by himself, to be fair.



_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 10:20:15 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I think he might have come up with that "everybody with no foreskin is jewish" notion by himself, to be fair.




Cannot argue with you on that

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 10:31:41 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Where is that promised, Pops?

Could be all those virgins look like your mother.



Tazzy, and who says that you can't "cherry pick" religions?
Where is that written down?
"No hell?" I'm Jewish!
Seventy two virgins (of MY choosing of course!) I'm Muslim!
Church of Scientology? How much money can I make out of them per week?
About three weeks ago my bell rang and it was two women and a young boy at the door, "Jehovah's Witnesses." They have a church about two miles away. Of course I had some fun with them!
"Ok, I'm looking for a church to join and you guys aren't the first ones to ask me to sign up!" I'm a "free agent."
"The Baptists offered me $600 a week to join their church." "What are you guys offering?" They look at each other.
"C'mon, you can do a $1,000 right?" "I mean you guys just built that brandnew church about two years ago, right?" "That must have cost you a few shekels right?"

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Why would anyone want there to be a God? - 5/9/2011 10:35:09 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I've got him on ignore: did he mention global warming or foreign aid in that post?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 60
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