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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 6:20:01 AM   
samboct


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Hi Ken

Umm, not quite...(and this is really a very theoretical discussion here). Let's say you need to siphon off enough heat for 1 kW x hr. Well, if the stove only puts out heat at 200C, you're going to need more heat diverted due to lower efficiency than if it puts out 400C. If we assume that the woodstove heat is coming out at 498K (I'm assuming 25 C interior temp plus 200C) and has a T1 of 253 K (-20 C if the gizbo is outside)- that's a Carnot efficiency of 49%. If he gets to 698K- that's a Carnot efficiency of 64%- so he can divert less heat to the gizbo and keep his tootsies warmer. Of course if the lubricating oil in his gizbo freezes- he's screwed.

I definitely don't like the idea of Alaska- not my cup of tea. I spent 8 years in New Hampshire-those winters were enough for me.


Sam

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 7:13:32 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

watt hours? 552 W/hr or about half a kW/hr. A watt/hour is a draw of one watt for one hour and is not the same thing as a simple watt.

So you do learn. Good deal.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 7:24:22 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

But he isn't using the stove simply as the heat source for a external combustion engine but as a means of heating the structure, which I assumed was its primary job. Therefore what matters isn't how hot the stove gets but how much of that heat can be siphoned off into a heat engine without the inhabitant freezing.


There are huge amounts of data that I have about the situation that you don't. Therefore it is "ludicrous" for you to argue that something isn't possible.

Do you know how many BTU's I will need to heat my space?
How about how well the proposed cabin will be insulated?
How many BTU's the stove I propose will put out?
How cold it will be in my particular location?
Do you know the working fluid temp/pressure ratings?
Will I be using the stove for all of the purposes stated at the same time?
so on, ad nauseam.

I'll answer that for you. No, nor have you I'm sure, even thought about those things. If you had, unless you really are moronic, you'd have come to the same conclusion I have. It is possible.

You're wrong and miss so much on so many levels, it's comical.

Edit and then I've got work to do: You will probably continue on. It's what you do even in the face of truth's that you don't posses. You're ego won't, most likely let you stop nor will it allow you to re-evaluate the situation. If anything it will push you further forward and onto another, what you will see as, another straw to grasp.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/10/2011 7:47:17 AM >


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 11:46:44 AM   
DomKen


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So now you're revising the claim to be that you can run a house on 1500 watt/hours? That was not your initial claim and when I asked for confirmation that you really meant watts you simply insulted me. 1500 watt/hours is much more viable for energy use but much less likely to be produced by a waste heat engine.

BTW if you are willing to put in the effort to keep a wood fired stove working why not turn it around and simply build/buy a steam powered electrical generator. If you don't heavily insulate the pressure vessel it will radiate enough heat to warm a smallish house. You could still spend hours per day feeding the fire box and shoveling out ash.

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 3:07:00 PM   
Icarys


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For those of you who are actually interested in the thread and haven't come to argue.
http://www.distributedenergy.com/november-december-2005/better-cogeneration-chemistry.aspxOrganic


Organic Rankine Cycle Engines
So what makes an Organic Rankine Cycle (ORC) engine so special? Like a standard steam engine, the ORC utilizes heated gas to drive a turbine. However, this gas is a heated organic chemical instead of superheated water steam. The organic chemicals used by an ORC include freon and most of the other traditional refrigerants—iso-pentane, CFCs, HFCs, butane, propane, and ammonia.


Refrigerants seem like an odd choice for a heat engine’s working fluid. However, these gases boil at extremely low temperatures. For example, a typical refrigerant will boil at a mere 150°F, generating significant pressures. The cycle of pressurization with a pump—expansion resulting from applied heat, using the heat to turn a turbine to create energy, and condensation of the fluid back to its liquid state—is identical to the steam engine. It just occurs at much lower temperatures. There are a few differences. Heating and expansion occurs with the application of heat to an evaporator, not a boiler. The condenser can utilize ambient air temperatures to cool the fluid back into a liquid. There is no need for direct contact between the heating source at the evaporator or the cooling source at the condenser.


For those applications where higher temperatures are available to heat the organic working fluid, a regenerator is often added to increase the efficiency of the system. Regenerators are typically constructed of a wire metal mesh or a series of closely spaced thin metal plates. The void spaces between the metal wires and plates allow for easy flow of the working fluid through the regenerator. The relatively large surface area of the metal permits conduction of heat. As the heated organic fluid leaves the boiler it passes through the regenerator, and some of its heat remains. When the cooled organic fluid leaves the condenser it passes through the regenerator in the opposite direction, acquiring some of the previously deposited heat, and preheating the fluid before it enters the boiler. Less heat is needed to boil the liquid, which increase the efficiency of the engine, since it is doing the same amount of work.


Though the amount of work performed by a typical ORC cannot compare with its steam-engine big brother, the ORC has many advantages. First, it has a very high cycle efficiency. For the relatively small amount of waste heat used to drive the engine a comparatively high amount of work can be performed. This results in high turbine efficiency—as high as 85%. That is, the amount of electricity generated by the turbine can be equal to 85% of the equivalent energy generated by the engine. This is the result of the relatively low peripheral speed of the turbine. Again, though the amount of electricity generated is small compared to the behemoth steam-driven turbines, the turbines driven by ORC engines operate at much higher efficiencies.


The low peripheral speed has several other advantages. First, it results in less mechanical stress on the turbine and no erosion of the turbine blades (though this is also a result of the lack of moisture corrosion). Low speeds allow for direct drive of the turbine, as there is no need for a reduction gear. All of the above result in a long operating life, less maintenance, and fewer repairs. Most ORC systems are essentially self running and do not need the constant supervision of a human operator.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_Rankine_Cycle


< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/10/2011 3:10:34 PM >


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 3:09:27 PM   
DomKen


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Sure you consulted a trained pro. Maybe you should have thought a little bit about why I suggested you do so. Maybe it was because I spent 6 years in the field and know what a watt is compared to a watt/hour and asked you which you meant. Any pro who says I'm not correct is not competent to put on electrical tape.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 3:13:58 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Any pro who says I'm not correct is not competent to put on electrical tape.

Oh I'm not disputing the terms. I even sent an email to Termy prior to all of this fun asking.

"

How long do you think it'll take before he realizes my numbers were Watt hours? :} He has a habit of assuming and running with those assumptions so I can't help myself. It's too much fun watching him run from one direction to another.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 4:16:00 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

I didn't assume anything liar.


quote:

I assume you mean 1500 watts continous draw. or basically 12.5 amps at 120 volts or 36 kW/h per day.


quote:

the great thing about forums like this is those old posts are still here and can easily be linked to.


I even told the guy that I enjoyed toying with him. There be sadists here ya know.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/10/2011 10:22:44 PM   
VideoAdminRho


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MANY post have been removed from this thread. If yours disappeared, it was either a personal attack, name calling, off topic, or responding to a pulled post. Please stay on topic and avoid attacking other users. Attacking a post is fine, attacking a user is not.

< Message edited by VideoAdminRho -- 5/10/2011 11:00:20 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/11/2011 4:31:41 PM   
outhere69


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The first link is dead; I saw a proposed design for a small plant, but their design called for powered fans.

If you really intend to try this, do a sub-scale "proof of concept" in your back yard. That would give you some data you could extrapolate on, without the risk of becoming a popsicle.

(in reply to VideoAdminRho)
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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/11/2011 6:27:44 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

The first link is dead; I saw a proposed design for a small plant, but their design called for powered fans.

If you really intend to try this, do a sub-scale "proof of concept" in your back yard. That would give you some data you could extrapolate on, without the risk of becoming a popsicle.



They both work for me.

Good advice. That's what I'm doing with the steam engine. I'm building it out of a weedeater. Small-scale.

I've already bought the AC compressor. The other hardware is on it's way. I'll probably have a customer who owns his own business to give me a hand on at least hooking the lines up and charging it. We've already talked it over.

I'd like to build it myself for the challenge but I'm not above asking questions from someone I know has more knowledge or help for something like this.. I'll do most of it and get his help when I need it. He sounded pretty interested in it as well after I sent him a bunch of links.

We'll see what happens. Here's the compressor. Sanden SD5H14

< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/11/2011 6:42:03 PM >


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/12/2011 1:31:39 PM   
outhere69


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Do you have a job lined up for when you move?

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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/12/2011 1:52:26 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

Do you have a job lined up for when you move?

That doesn't have anything to do with the main topic but I'll answer it anyway.

I've got a couple of potential plans. First off, I'll be getting my home squared, including everything that entails, for a subsistence lifestyle. I'll also want to just enjoy my new way of life before I get to traditional work. That will take a year or two.

After that, I have plans to work from my cabin. Two separate business will most likely be ran from there. One I'll tell, the other I won't. The first one will be website design for businesses.

Trapping is suppose to be good money there but I see that as cruel. Killing an animal for your food, although I wouldn't enjoy it as a sport, is okay in my book. I'll take just what I need to survive where I'm at.

Since the only bill I'll likely have is satellite internet, I won't need a lot of money. Living day to day will be my main job. You really need very little money to survive and even prosper living like that.

Between the first business and the other one, I should do more than fine, financially, plus what I'll have when I sell the business I have now.




_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to outhere69)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/13/2011 8:13:47 AM   
samboct


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If I were going to do this- (and I wouldn't)-I'd take a look at fuel cells. Fuel cells offer a bunch of advantages here- they're reliable, when used in a co generation environment, they're quite efficient meaning that they throw off a lot of waste heat that can be used for hot water so a moose won't charge you if you get upwind after a few weeks, and they can be powered by a variety of fuels. Ballard Power Systems has a nice looking little unit that I think might be in the $5k range (don't hold me to pricing- I heard $3/watt, but that may be in larger sizes) that uses a propane reformer (you'd have to a have a propane supply), but somebody did some academic work and showed that either a phosphoric acid cell or a molten carbonate cell could be powered with....wood.

Might want to do a little more digging.

Sam

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/13/2011 8:39:52 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

If I were going to do this- (and I wouldn't)-I'd take a look at fuel cells. Fuel cells offer a bunch of advantages here- they're reliable, when used in a co generation environment, they're quite efficient meaning that they throw off a lot of waste heat that can be used for hot water so a moose won't charge you if you get upwind after a few weeks, and they can be powered by a variety of fuels. Ballard Power Systems has a nice looking little unit that I think might be in the $5k range (don't hold me to pricing- I heard $3/watt, but that may be in larger sizes) that uses a propane reformer (you'd have to a have a propane supply), but somebody did some academic work and showed that either a phosphoric acid cell or a molten carbonate cell could be powered with....wood.

Might want to do a little more digging.

Sam

Could I build it myself for around $500 with easy to get parts so that everyone could do the same?

Keep in mind that there are no roads to my location and the only way in and out would be by a small super-cub plane. Very costly, relatively speaking, to bring fuel and supplies in. I'm trying to limit that to as few trips as possible on a yearly basis. Preferably one to two.

I appreciate your input but I have the bigger picture in focus. I will give it a look, however.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/13/2011 2:25:35 PM   
samboct


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No- you can't build it yourself for $500. However, one of the advantages of fuel cells is exactly the issue you mentioned- they're very reliable. That's why they power space craft. They aren't cheap or haven't been to date- Ballard is claiming something of a breakthrough in this area. They're also quite compact- so if you have to pay by the pound to get stuff in- you might be ahead of the game compared to a diesel generator. Summary- not cheap- but compact and reliable plus it kills several birds with one stone- i.e. hot water/heat/power.

Sam

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/13/2011 3:04:36 PM   
Icarys


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Well wood stove combination kills 8 birds with one stone.

Wood stove heats water for baths, steam for power generation, heat for the cabin, heat for the Organic Rankine Cycle, it saves on the cost of transporting fuel, saves on the actual cost of the fuel itself, I can cook on the stove and the woodstove/ORC/Steam engine setup costs about $3500 less, so there!


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/20/2011 9:11:31 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I remember this thing they built for overweight people. It was an exercycle connected to a generator which ran a TV. Want to watch TV ? Pedal ! Something like that might be worth a shot.


Yeah, I saw an article about some gyms that've started to use exercise machines like that to power the gym. Going green and all that. Not sure how much power each one generates, though. And if the objective here is being mostly self-suffecient, that'll require a lot of physical labor such as growing crops, hunting, cutting firewood, pumping water, etc so he might be too tired to be using an exercise bike for a couple hours at the end of the day.

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RE: Organic Rankine Cycle - 5/20/2011 9:23:22 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Could I build it myself for around $500 with easy to get parts so that everyone could do the same?

Keep in mind that there are no roads to my location and the only way in and out would be by a small super-cub plane. Very costly, relatively speaking, to bring fuel and supplies in. I'm trying to limit that to as few trips as possible on a yearly basis. Preferably one to two.



Just curious, but how are you going to meet with web design clients if you can only get out of your location by airplane a few times a year?

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 59
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