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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 5:36:27 AM   
Kindred2Evil


Posts: 227
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline 		If I miss a comment posted at me, sorry.  But here goes.

You say that that the Jewish religion goes all the way back to when God created Adam and Eve.  That's dandy IF you believe God did that.  I don't.  Go to a history museum and look at the artifacts from thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago.  When man created images of their deity it was usually the female form.  I know there is a God in the pagan religion luv, and he has his place there and is due all his respects as well.  BUT it is mainly the Goddess to whom I pray and worship.  The female is the deity who holds life in her hands, not the male. Others may believe otherwise, and so be it, I really don't care.  As for my religion being organized, look to different countries where Wicca and paganism (two different beliefs I might add) were pre-dominant before Christianity.  Look to the healers, the mid-wives, the Druids and so on and on and on and on.  Back in the olllllllllld days NO religion was organized, they worshiped in groves and in the woods, they prayed in their fields for good crops offering up gifts of honey and wine to the Goddess and Gods, they prayed before hunts to Diana and a myriad of other beings.
As for stepping out of my glass house, READ the bloody bible.  Incest is bad, yet supposedly we all come from two people.  How did we get here if they weren't all having sex with each other?????????  After the great flood that supposedly took place, how did the planet get re-populated without Noah and his kin having sex with EACH OTHER????  Thou shalt not murder...and yet it also states An eye for an eye.  You keep skipping these points, I have noticed time and again.  Christians answer what's comfortable for them to answer and that's it, they simply ignore the rest.
I personally don't give a rip what deity you worship, just don't cram it down my throat.  If you challenge other religions, be ready to back it up and answer the questions tossed your way. 
It never fails that when there are catastrophies happening this end of days gets going.  Wake up, the world is full of mean and ignorant people, it always has been, it always will be.  Mankind makes war, it's what we do.  The press is more interested in sensationalism than in being fair and showing the good right along with the bad.
As for why I believe in a Goddess, it's pretty simple.  I believe there is some higher power out there who is going to be there when I die to help me correct the things I did wrong in this life so when I return I won't make the same mistakes.  I believe She's there because every day is a miracle, from dawn to dark and I've been blessed by Her to even be here.  When I feel like absolute shit and get all down and bluesy all I have to do is look at my kid and know that Someone blessed me with this little person.  I cannot believe we are a mistake created by nothing.  If there's no afterlife, what's the point in being here?  When I die, aside from my body being worm food I like to think that my energy will go to something greater.  That's why I believe and have faith.  I've seen miracles happen, spirits cast out of bodies, women calling down the Goddess and Her using them as avatars.  I've seen someone who was raped be rid of the dark spirit that had wrapped itsself around her.  Yes, Virginia, miracles do happen.
Debate on religion is as old as time, it gets the blood pumping like nothing else can.  Good on ya.

_____________________________

Her touch is on the breeze that brushes your cheek, Her voice rides the thunder as the storm breaks, Her tears will clean your heartache when the rains come, Her sun will light the darkest times when you feel alone...She is the Goddess.

(in reply to Level)
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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 7:25:12 AM   
MistyMenthal


Posts: 413
Joined: 3/28/2006
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quote:

I know there is a God in the pagan religion luv, and he has his place there and is due all his respects as well.
 
Yes He's called Satan
 
MISTY'S KISS

(in reply to Kindred2Evil)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 8:10:02 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		Humans are flawed and therefore we are always going to have some chaos going on in our world. I think the biggest problem right now IS religion. People are going over the top with it and trying to force it onto other people. These interesting books were written by people and they of course embellished where they felt it was necessary. To say that they are strictly the word of God? I will believe it when she/he/it appears before me with tablet and quill in hand.

I believe in the earth Goddess and I can tell you she doesn't  tell you to hate anyone. Any religion that picks out a specific group to hate and punish isn't teaching universal love, they are teaching hatred and bigotry. Is that what God is about? Most of these religious texts tell us we should enslave women with their evil bodies, hate homosexuals for loving in different way, and anyone else they deem *sinful*. People need to stop being sheep and start thinking and reading between the lines. Its a means of CONTROLLING the populace is all that it is.

As far as Satan goes, that was a Christian invention and you can thank them for all the innocent people they burned at the stake for supposedly being *witches*. Is there evil in the world? You bet there is and its called *humanity*. People can be good or evil its their own decision to make. It's amazing how easily people will kill others in the name of *religion*.

~Lashra

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 8:31:18 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal

quote:

I know there is a God in the pagan religion luv, and he has his place there and is due all his respects as well.
 
Yes He's called Satan
 
MISTY'S KISS



how very ecumenical

(in reply to MistyMenthal)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 9:00:33 AM   
xxmstrchasxx


Posts: 423
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

After the great flood that supposedly took place, how did the planet get re-populated without Noah and his kin having sex with EACH OTHER????  Thou shalt not murder...and yet it also states An eye for an eye. 


I am going to answer this part the best that I can.  Noah and his children and their wives were all on the ark as you can see in Genesis starting in Chapter 10.  Please see Chapter 10:32 too. You can see that just more than Noah was on the ark at Genesis 7:1



The eye for an eye they are talking about is not a man for a man or death for death.  If you go to Leviticus 24:19 and Leviticus 24:20 you will see they were talking about equal compensations.

quote:

Incest is bad, yet supposedly we all come from two people.  How did we get here if they weren't all having sex with each other?????????


There is another answer for this that I will have to look up but I am just going to say this about it now.  One of their sons were named Abel and another Caine, if you read where they were born in Genesis, you will see that that after Caine killed Abel that Caine went to a whole differnet land and found a wife there.  So, the earth was populated in other places at that time. 

Now let's just assume that all of Adams and Eve children has sex and did commit incest like you say.  When does the incest stop?  I mean does two 6th cousins getting married and having children still commit incest, or how about a 15th cousin or 100th cousin so incest regardless would have stop somewhere and the population of the earth would have been mostly from non-incest relationships.

My point is even today cousins can get married and have children  and it's not regarded as incest.  Again, there is another answer to this and I will find it and post it.






(in reply to Kindred2Evil)
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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 9:07:12 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal

quote:

I know there is a God in the pagan religion luv, and he has his place there and is due all his respects as well.
 
Yes He's called Satan
 
MISTY'S KISS

Satan was invented by the Christians so give credit where it is truly due.

~Lashra

(in reply to MistyMenthal)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 9:17:02 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Satan appears in the Old Testament, so he wasn't invented by Christians.

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 10:17:01 AM   
RedRedWine


Posts: 157
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedRedWine

And I agree with you. That's why I am so picky and tight-assed about going to a church because many of them are full of two-faced people. I even know of one who tries to make their teens sign a contract stating that they will save their virginity until they are married! Talk about a mind/emotion breaker. And bet you anything the people who are making them sign are people who had sex even before marriage! (Referring to your last pargraph)

And I can understand easily why people would turn away from Christianity. I have a friend who turned away because all she saw in her family were people leading double lives.


Now, if you had a truly christian outlook, you'd not be judging these people.........the mother asking the child to save themselves for marriage may be thinking of their child's welfare and have the very best of intentions, through their own experience of NOT waiting ( only God would know this, as he knows every thought)

I'm not sure how someone can turn away from christianity (God) because of how humans behave.......surely it's meant to be about your *personal relationship with God* not about how others around you are behaving? If you have a conviction and belief in a God, it must be a flimsy one if this happens.

agirl



Who ever said I was judging them? I was stating a fact, not a judgement. Now, if I had said these people are horrible, THEN it would have been an act of judgement. But I clearly said that they make their kids sign a contract and that many churches hold nothing by hypocrites. That is a fact.

And speaking of judgement....
If you didn't judge people, you'd be misled constantly. (And no, that does not mean a start on "You're being mislead anyway by this belief." Irrelevant)  You HAVE to judge people who decide to take a Bible and teach you.  In fact, it doesn't have to even be a Bible or a religion. To take ANYTHING and teach you from it. Because we have a tendency to twist things into our own words...lol and then everything just goes wrong. I mean I even judge my bosses at work. If they want to be placed higher than me, and teach me how to work, they damn well better know what they are talking about, and they damn well better not double-cross me. (Oh yes, I have a boss who does that...crappy little thing...).
I think you misread what I wrote. They want them to sign a contract to the church. My mom asked me to wait until marriage. That's fine! Looking after their well being if perfectly normal. But I do not think it's up to the church to make some contract for a kid to sign. That's bullshit. And I don't think they should be forced to sign it.

I agree to some level with you though on the last paragraph though. Very true. Fully blaming humans for the cause to turn away from God isn't right.It is up to us to keep a connection with the one we believe in and we shouldn't let other humans break that.  But they do have a very high hand in helping along the way.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 10:57:27 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Satan appears in the Old Testament, so he wasn't invented by Christians.


L&M,
Don't you know interjecting facts into a religious debate isn't fair??!!

I think the Christians invented "Lucifer" as the result of a translation error moving from the original "old God" Hebrew to the "one true-new & improved" language of God - Latin.

quote:

  In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Lucifer is from Old English, where the word meant both 'the morning star' and 'Satan'. The Old English word is from Latin; its etymological meaning is 'light-bearing', derived from the stem of lux 'light' (cf. Modern English lucid) and ferre 'to bear; carry'. The use of Lucifer as an epithet for Satan comes from a passage in Isiah 14:12, which actually refers to Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, who was compared to the morning star; early Christian writers took this passage to be alluding to the fall of the archangel who was hurled from heaven because of his wickedness.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 12:18:10 PM   
MrMister


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

So far no-one has actually explained WHY they believe in a God....or what prompts them to.....The people that do NOT believe in a God can explain why they do not...


Perhaps you missed my post here on this tread (#102, 132, 135), as that is precisely what I attempted to do was explain the basis for why I believe what I believe. But this is not the easiest thing (for me anyway) to fully articulate in a forum, but I gave it a shot nonetheless.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 12:57:54 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		It is an age old argument.  Either you believe or you do not.  It is a faith based religion.  There is no concrete scientific proof.  Those who have seen what God can do believe.  Those that have their eyes wide shut cannot.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to MrMister)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 2:52:27 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedRedWine

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedRedWine

And I agree with you. That's why I am so picky and tight-assed about going to a church because many of them are full of two-faced people. I even know of one who tries to make their teens sign a contract stating that they will save their virginity until they are married! Talk about a mind/emotion breaker. And bet you anything the people who are making them sign are people who had sex even before marriage! (Referring to your last pargraph)

And I can understand easily why people would turn away from Christianity. I have a friend who turned away because all she saw in her family were people leading double lives.


Now, if you had a truly christian outlook, you'd not be judging these people.........the mother asking the child to save themselves for marriage may be thinking of their child's welfare and have the very best of intentions, through their own experience of NOT waiting ( only God would know this, as he knows every thought)

I'm not sure how someone can turn away from christianity (God) because of how humans behave.......surely it's meant to be about your *personal relationship with God* not about how others around you are behaving? If you have a conviction and belief in a God, it must be a flimsy one if this happens.

agirl



Who ever said I was judging them? I was stating a fact, not a judgement. Now, if I had said these people are horrible, THEN it would have been an act of judgement. But I clearly said that they make their kids sign a contract and that many churches hold nothing by hypocrites. That is a fact.

And speaking of judgement....
If you didn't judge people, you'd be misled constantly. (And no, that does not mean a start on "You're being mislead anyway by this belief." Irrelevant)  You HAVE to judge people who decide to take a Bible and teach you.  In fact, it doesn't have to even be a Bible or a religion. To take ANYTHING and teach you from it. Because we have a tendency to twist things into our own words...lol and then everything just goes wrong. I mean I even judge my bosses at work. If they want to be placed higher than me, and teach me how to work, they damn well better know what they are talking about, and they damn well better not double-cross me. (Oh yes, I have a boss who does that...crappy little thing...).
I think you misread what I wrote. They want them to sign a contract to the church. My mom asked me to wait until marriage. That's fine! Looking after their well being if perfectly normal. But I do not think it's up to the church to make some contract for a kid to sign. That's bullshit. And I don't think they should be forced to sign it.

I agree to some level with you though on the last paragraph though. Very true. Fully blaming humans for the cause to turn away from God isn't right.It is up to us to keep a connection with the one we believe in and we shouldn't let other humans break that.  But they do have a very high hand in helping along the way.


Yes, I can see where the misunderstanding occurred.

I would say though, that just because a person has had sex before marriage doesn't actually make them a hypocrite to have a different view of it years later. I have done many things in my past that I'd encourage my children not to do and any other child that I conversed with, including drug taking. It doesn't make me a hypocrite, it makes me someone that learned a few very hard lessons.

I was being a little tongue in cheek in some of the post and actually, I have found the *no sex* contracts idea rather an odd one and I agree with you that it's humiliating to ask them to sign something of that nature.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to RedRedWine)
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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 3:04:08 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMister

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

So far no-one has actually explained WHY they believe in a God....or what prompts them to.....The people that do NOT believe in a God can explain why they do not...


Perhaps you missed my post here on this tread (#102, 132, 135), as that is precisely what I attempted to do was explain the basis for why I believe what I believe. But this is not the easiest thing (for me anyway) to fully articulate in a forum, but I gave it a shot nonetheless.


I did indeed miss it....and have left it too late this evening to read properly, so will do so tomorrow. Thanks very much for pointing your posts out to me , with the numbers etc, it will be helpful.

With regards, agirl




(in reply to MrMister)
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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 3:13:05 PM   
mitsu


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/7/2005
From: New York
Status: offline 		Dear Lord, please save me from Your followers.

_____________________________

The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists - that is why they invented hell.
Bertrand Russell

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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 4:08:21 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:


As for my religion being organized, look to different countries where Wicca and paganism (two different beliefs I might add) were pre-dominant before Christianity. Look to the healers, the mid-wives, the Druids and so on and on and on and on. Back in the olllllllllld days NO religion was organized, they worshiped in groves and in the woods, they prayed in their fields for good crops offering up gifts of honey and wine to the Goddess and Gods, they prayed before hunts to Diana and a myriad of other beings.


Wicca is a modern invention, directly dependent on 19th Century high ceremonial magic (and the earlier grimores upon which it was based). It was not practiced before Christianity, having come around long after it. Paganism is not a religion, but a broad umbrella of numerous conflicting religions defined mainly by the fact they are not Judeo-Christian.

I don't know where you're drawing your historical sources from, but religion has been organzied since the dawn of history (at the very least). Please name a handful of pre-Christian faiths which did not have a priesthood or other authoritative figures, along with an accompanying multiclass religious community.

quote:


As for stepping out of my glass house, READ the bloody bible. Incest is bad, yet supposedly we all come from two people. How did we get here if they weren't all having sex with each other????????? After the great flood that supposedly took place, how did the planet get re-populated without Noah and his kin having sex with EACH OTHER???? Thou shalt not murder...and yet it also states An eye for an eye. You keep skipping these points, I have noticed time and again. Christians answer what's comfortable for them to answer and that's it, they simply ignore the rest.


This is just a weak strawman. I never once claimed the Bible with inerrant, without contradiction. My glass house comment had nothing to do with the Bible. It was a direct response to you saying no one has a right to judge another's beliefs and calling Christian hypocrites. You followed that with your own hypocritical slam on Christianity.

However, I will answer the two things you toss out about the Bible in this. Noah's family is twice covered from your weak assertion of contradiction. First, his son's wives (who were not of Noah's immediate family) were also on the ark. Noah's grandchildren could easily avoid (the much later) prhibitions on incest by somply marrying their cousins instead of siblings. Second, the prohibition on incest was not instituted until after the escape from Egyptian bondage (long after Noah). (Notably, I do not believe the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt. It is likely an allegory for the time when Egypt controlled Palestine.) So your claim that the family of Noah violated prohibitions on incest fails twice, on just a short examination.

Your claim that the lextalionis and the prohibition on murder are contradictory is also false. "Murder" means an unsanctioned and unjustified killing. Capital punishment in the Bible is both sanctioned and justified. *You* may choose to hold a view that killing is always murder. However, the Bible sets out a wide variety of circumstances in regards to killing and treats them in various distinct ways.

*meow*
EDIT: typo correction

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 5/16/2006 4:16:40 PM >

(in reply to Kindred2Evil)
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RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 4:11:10 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Satan appears in the Old Testament, so he wasn't invented by Christians.


Agreed. But i would point out the Christian Satan (The Devil) is most certainly not the same as the Jewish Satan.

One is a cast out angelic rebel and the other is more like a prosecuting attorney (respectively).

*meow*

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 4:11:29 PM   
RedRedWine


Posts: 157
Joined: 2/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mitsu

Dear Lord, please save me from Your followers.


LOL! That made me smile. Not in a mean or anything way I just thought it really was funny.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 5:23:02 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think there's such a thing as "the Jewish Satan."  "Satan" just means "adversary."  He appears in Job.  Some exegetes go so far as to say that "Satan" there simply refers to the dark aspect of God--in other words, that he's not a separate entity.  But that gets into theology, and, frankly, some of the participants in this thread aren't old enough for theology.  Kids get strange ideas, you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Satan appears in the Old Testament, so he wasn't invented by Christians.


Agreed. But i would point out the Christian Satan (The Devil) is most certainly not the same as the Jewish Satan.

One is a cast out angelic rebel and the other is more like a prosecuting attorney (respectively).

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 5:26:00 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal



quote:

I know there is a God in the pagan religion luv, and he has his place there and is due all his respects as well.

 
Yes He's called Satan
 
MISTY'S KISS



Satan was invented by the Christians so give credit where it is truly due.

~Lashra

Ahh so Only Christians Believe in Him?


Tell Satan that!

quote:

"Yes you may Ask The Grim Reaper!"

 
Ant,


< Message edited by knees2you -- 5/16/2006 5:27:19 PM >

(in reply to RedRedWine)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: End of Days. - 5/16/2006 5:43:53 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I don't think there's such a thing as "the Jewish Satan."  "Satan" just means "adversary."  He appears in Job.  Some exegetes go so far as to say that "Satan" there simply refers to the dark aspect of God--in other words, that he's not a separate entity.  But that gets into theology, and, frankly, some of the participants in this thread aren't old enough for theology.  Kids get strange ideas, you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Satan appears in the Old Testament, so he wasn't invented by Christians.


Agreed. But i would point out the Christian Satan (The Devil) is most certainly not the same as the Jewish Satan.

One is a cast out angelic rebel and the other is more like a prosecuting attorney (respectively).



He also appears in Psalms, Zechariah and Chronicles (though it may be Kings, for obvious reasons I sometimes confuse the two). He is also a recurring figure in the Talmud. It is certainly open to interpretation. However, I do believe the generalization of presenting the Jewish depiction of Satan as a DA in opposition the Christian depiction of Satan as dualistic oppposition to God is fairly correct. Touching on the theological implications, a large number of Jews espouse the belief that Satan is an allegory, an embodiment of temptation. I've heard the idea that Satan was a "dark side" of God before, but I personally do not give it much stock. It just doesn't fit well with internal and external evidences. The "loyal opposition" tack I've come to believe as the most likely, as this fits well with the implications of Job and explicit references in midrash (as well as ancient regional religious trends).

*meow*

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 180
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