RE: The perfect "tell"??? (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/10/2004 4:20:17 PM)

IMO... submission, like dominance isnt a quantafiable(sp?/word?...lol) substance.

To some, I would appear a submissive.
To others... nothing more than a person with unusual 'tastes'...

Who I submit to, may not be the person another would. I may serve and submit to a Dominant... or even several... but not to all.

Submission and Dominance isnt a straight line one scores upon... but more a flowing curve of power exchange.



LadyAngelika -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/10/2004 4:25:23 PM)

quote:

What I AM asking is if people have their own way for that special "tell". Nothing more and nothing less.


As you suggested in your original post, gut instinct. It's the only thing that works for me and it is about 95% accurate.

- LA



msjingles -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/10/2004 4:32:56 PM)

quote:

What I AM asking is if people have their own way for that special "tell". Nothing more and nothing less.


well, had you said that in the beginning, you may have gotten different replies[:)]
You did ask for our opinions...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadVoodooDadd

*snip*

So, does anyone else have a different oppinion or am I asking you guys for something that does not exist?

I am looking forward to hearing from all of you!


[;)]



subbiejenn -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/10/2004 4:56:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nvernilla

LOL what great story/attitude. But you ARE one of the best on the boards keep on keepin on jenn...Mike


*smiles* Thank You Nvernilla -- glad someone enjoys all my posts :)




lilninotchka -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/10/2004 8:34:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
Because.. statistically how people self identify is more often wrong, than right, hence it is not a valid method for catagorization. While it can be used for a preliminary sort, measurable standards are best and without bias.

Ms. Eden.


A question here...are you speaking of results of the study you mentioned (and linked to the abstract of) in your earlier post when you say this? Are there any other studies that show similar results about self-perception or self-identity in general that you know of? i have heard it generalised that most people, when identifying what they see as 'how they are', often 'get it wrong'. They often see themselves as 'how they would like to be' as opposed to how they actually are. Is there really truth in that?

If anyone has any other information or links to something that may help support or disprove these theories, i would greatly appreciate the info.



happypervert -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/10/2004 9:22:35 PM)

quote:

If anyone has any other information or links to something that may help support or disprove these theories, i would greatly appreciate the info.

well you might start with this book

Judgment under Uncertainty : Heuristics and Biases

This was one textbook for a class I had on biased judgement. A classic example is ask people if they are better than average drivers, and about 80% will say yes.

So anyway, that book is probably one of the best in the field -- one of the authors, Kahneman or Tversky got a Nobel Prize, I think (the other was dead at the time).



liljoy -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 3:58:41 AM)

i don't think there is one perfect "test" that tells you how submissive one is. i am kinda wondering why exactly it matters how submissive one is. Is it not enough that the person is submissive? How submissive one is i think changes as trust grows. i think Your 'tests' really don't say much about how submissive one is at all. It may give You some idea of what they are willing to take from YOU but is that a test really of how submissive they are?



sweetpleaser -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 6:20:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadVoodooDadd

The "issue" is how do you tell how submissive someone really is in the begining?


Sorry I did not answer your question the way you wanted but I assumed that you meant "the beginning".

quote:

I have been really thinking about all different things and other than pure gut instinct I have not found one thing that would help me determine how submissive someone is before I get to know them a bit better.


I think you are frustrated with the dating game in general. You have an idea of who someone is but 6 months down the road they are different. That is life and has nothing to do with someone being submissive or dominant. Going back to my original post on this subject, it would be helpful to have everything on the table in the beginning. Maybe draw up a "sub" contract? It is not enforceable but something in writing. If you go over it with a possible sub they might think about the content in depth so you could get a clearer picture on their true character.

Good luck to you.
ann



Destinysskeins -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 8:26:10 AM)

Greetings,

i'm sorry but using a method or test to identify how 'submissive' someone is just strikes me as preposterous. Perhaps, that is because i am submissive and incredibly so, but only for the One who has shown me that i can trust His judgement and use of me, not to every Tom, Dick & Harry. Thusly, it takes time in order to determine how submissive i am and furthermore, the depths of my submission change continually as my Master and i become more and more comfortable within that power exchange.

How would most of the Dom/mes on this forum feel if they thought potential submissives were utilizing 'tests' in order to determine how 'Dominant' that Person was? i'm thinking that would run right along the lines of brattiness, which is something that most Dom/mes generally look down upon as it consumes and wastes countless reserves of energy in Themselves instead of allowing them to please Themselves with Their submissive in the way that They choose. (That being said, i do know of Dom/mes who enjoy bratty subs and vice versa so please take no offense those that do).

Ok, so everything else put aside....

After mulling this about my head more and more as i write i do understand that 'testing' or evaluating a potential partner is more normal and necessary. One must take care to ensure that the other person is a good match for oneself and that each person's needs/wants are compatible to the other. However, i do agree with other posters in that this process does take time (people can wear very convincing masks for an astounding period of time). Yes, sometimes after taking the time to evaluate a partner adequately one will discover that 1 + 1 (does not in fact) = 2 but it does count as a life lesson which are infinite in number and possiblity.

Well wishes!



MaitresseEden -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 9:36:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lilninotchka


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
Because.. statistically how people self identify is more often wrong, than right, hence it is not a valid method for catagorization. While it can be used for a preliminary sort, measurable standards are best and without bias.

Ms. Eden.


A question here...are you speaking of results of the study you mentioned (and linked to the abstract of) in your earlier post when you say this? Are there any other studies that show similar results about self-perception or self-identity in general that you know of? i have heard it generalised that most people, when identifying what they see as 'how they are', often 'get it wrong'. They often see themselves as 'how they would like to be' as opposed to how they actually are. Is there really truth in that?

If anyone has any other information or links to something that may help support or disprove these theories, i would greatly appreciate the info.


There are countless numbers of research papers that prove the statistical liabilities on relying on self reporting, and any introductory research and stats class will cover it. My post was in reply to the original question of is there as "test" to which I answered "yes" like Destinyskins says, To rely on such in this instance would be preposterous, HOWEVER I would counter and say I Would NOT rely soley on self reporting. Behavior is important as well. While the hair pull test may determine is someone is a masochist, or just plain aggressive, it is wrong to associate masochism and submission as something that always co-exist.

Some of the most submissive people I know are not the least bit masocistic, and vice versa.

So in response to the revised question. Of how to I ascertain if a person is submissive in the beginning. I do the following.. I observe and I discuss my observations with them. So people take a while to show their submissive side, for others it is inherant in all that they do.
I also try to gauge how self aware they are about other aspects in thier life, do they percieve themselves as how other percieve them? so on and so forth. I have personally found that the more self aware, and honest a person is with themselves the higher probablity that what they report is true.

Another litmus test to personality is determine how much of thier ideology is based in fantasy and how much is ground in reality. When a sub tells me they have no limits, and they barely know me I immediately feel see red warning lights. For often they are defining thier experience to be based solely in fantasy. I like to scare reality back into them by mentioning of extreme acts to shock them back into reality. Anyway.. that in an of itself is another topic.

Ms.Eden



Mercnbeth -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 9:49:17 AM)

For me it's always been simple. Look into a person's eyes. Do it upon meeting to determine if they have submissive tendencies. Do it after a completing a session to see if they are submissive. And do it while shopping in a food store frustrated by a slow cashier; if you get the look there you have potentially found the rarest diamond - a slave.

Careful with this though, a good submissive can find the same "tell" in your eyes.





magiqual -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 11:24:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadVoodooDadd

What I AM asking is if people have their own way for that special "tell". Nothing more and nothing less.


No, because there is no litmus test for submission. You can get to know somebody and find whether their interests and desires match with yours or they do not.

Now, you have told us in great detail about the questions you didn't ask. However, you did make a statement and ask our opinions. Here is the statement:

quote:

Everyone has done the "hairpull" test to see if the person will close their eyes and have their knees buckle when you grab their hair at that oh so sweet spot or if they will try to rip our arm out of the socket and try to beat us in to pulp with it. We have all done the nipple pinch test to see how much the person squirms and stomps their foot against the floor in protest thinking it would stop us.


Here is an opinion:

Saying that "everyone" has done these "tests" to identify someone who relates as a submissive is simply not true. The consequences of pulling someone's hair or pinching their nipple non-consensually could range from a simple "no" to being brought up on assault charges. This is especially true if the person protests ("the person squirms and stomps their foot against the floor in protest thinking it would stop us"); non-consent is non-consent. Since your original question was framed in terms of determining whether a person would accept such behaviors prior to a relationship ("before I get to know them a bit better"), it's not much of a stretch for people to believe you were talking about a situation where you had not received explicit permission beforehand.

Your profile states:
quote:

If you like to be protected by limits, boundaries and rules do not bother me as I believe in the fact that they are ment and made to be broken.


and I will note there is a substantial difference between being in a relationship where you have an agreement and consent to overstep someone's "boundaries" and when you have not yet established such a relationship.

Now do you understand why people reacted so strongly?



happypervert -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 11:41:07 AM)

quote:

When a sub tells me they have no limits, and they barely know me I immediately feel see red warning lights. For often they are defining thier experience to be based solely in fantasy. I like to scare reality back into them by mentioning of extreme acts to shock them back into reality


I will propose a "no-limits" test. Just smile and say "Oh goody! Let me go get my chainsaw and we'll get started" and then leave the room. If they are still there 2 minutes later they really are no-limits.



BigBadVoodooDadd -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 11:46:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magiqual

Now do you understand why people reacted so strongly?



OK I guess you really do not understand what I have been asking. This has NOTHING to do with me but a general discussion that has been going on between myself and other Dominants in the community. Any assumption other than it is a hypothetical discussion is wrong as I have already stated in my second response.

Including my profile quote, stating that my profile is not respectful or that I did not recieve permission is completely irrelevant because this is very much HYPOTHETICAL.

So again, I am asking about any other ways one might be able to tell how deep the person's submission is. NOT why the examples I gave did not work or how I might be frustrated with the dating game because once again it is purely HYPOTHETICAL!

Now, mercnbeth... thank you, that is actually a good one but it is really based on gut feeling. One of those things that come with experience and being in the lifestyle for a long time. I can probably tell how submissive someone is without probably 10-15 minutes of being around them in a completely non kink conversation. I am able to do that because I have been around for almost 10 years but you have guys that have been in the lifestyle for a year or two or even more but they have not had the experience they need to determine someone's submission. They end up going out with someone that is not really at their level of submission. Now they have more than ample play experience but finding someone that is in their D/s range is hard for them and so many of them tend to spend months even years wasted on relationships that will not work.

My thought is if there is actually a way to better one's chances sort of speak of having a successful D/s relationship if the ONLY criteria is one's level of submission.

Not looking for personality trait answers here or anything else. Just trying to figure out that particular part of one's personality, the submission part!


Thank you all once again!



happypervert -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 3:38:16 PM)

Ya know, the more you try to narrowly define your hypothetical question so you can better understand some hypothetical D/s relationship, the more I think the answers to your original so poorly understood question are far more interesting than the "answer" you seek. But since it is all so hypothetical now, perhaps it isn't even worth responding to except as an exercise in hypothetical mental masturbation.

However, there are some researchers out there doing experiments to identify deeply submissive women. You might find opinions about them in threads about "trolls".




msjingles -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 3:41:48 PM)

quote:

However, there are some researchers out there doing experiments to identify deeply submissive women. You might find opinions about them in threads about "trolls".


LOL

Ya know, seriously though, I took a look at your profile BVDD and to be honest it sounds just like those Dom's we are warned away from. To me at least *shrug*



ShadeDiva -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 6:21:50 PM)

Yanno pulling my hair will have two effects - me being happy someone is playing with my hair, or a fist whizzing at yer face. lol

I have learned to with my partner at least to give a pre-cursory hiss/yell of ARGH BAD HAIRS BAD HAIRS as I launch into a offensive attack lol. If he shifts it quick enough it's sorta funny cuz I'll mellow out.

This does NOT work with just anyone either - only a certain select few have the ability to not trigger my hissing cussing pissy transformation with yanking on my hair.

A LOT of it is context really. I can have kids ripping my hair out as they try to *coff* "style it" and be content as serene as you could be, they can yank on bad hairs til the sun goes down and it won't trigger that reaction at all, it's more of a grooming hyponsis sort of state lol. Me primate! *chortle* But get someone yanking the wrong motherfucking gawddamn ouchie bad bad BAD hairs trying to get a subbie state and omgggggggggg ... just ROAR!

Then again when the right person does it and does it right I can fall sleep right there.

Go figger.

Hmmm maybe it's a switch thang.

LOL!

~ShadeDiva



topcat -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 6:22:36 PM)

quote:

The "issue" is how do you tell how submissive someone really is in the begining?


M. BBVD-

"how" submissive they are is really not a measure of anything- the question is, how well can you develop thier inate tendancies in regards to you.

I actually have done the 'hair pull test'- trouble is, if done correctly, about 80% of the women in the world will respond positively- inculding many women who are dominant.

The best indicator, IMO, is simply to be dominant and see how they respond. This doesn't mean dominating them - be confident, polite, sincere, focused and charming, and see how they respond. Unfortunatly, all the above behaviors are exhibited by submissive males (one would hope), so if she seems drawn to your behaviors, she may very well be dominant.

Hmmm. I give up. what is the answer?

Stay warm,
Lawrence



topcat -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 6:29:18 PM)

M. BBVD-

Sorry- I should have read the rest of the thread before posting the above. My bad. I think the real crux of the inital post is this:

quote:

I have not found one thing that would help me determine how submissive someone is before I get to know them a bit better.


I doubt you will- and certainly nothing that will indicate how submissive they may be before they get to know you better.

Good post though- generated a lot of traffic<g>.

Stay warm,
Lawrence



topcat -> RE: The perfect "tell"??? (10/11/2004 6:36:44 PM)

quote:

yanking on my hair.


Milady Shady-

I don't think that was what he meant (I hope not). It's not a yank- not even a pull. It's more sort of a stroke- brushing back from behind the ear, almost cradlinng the base of the skull (carefully NOT pulling the short hairs at the back of the neck!) and just gently closing ones fist in her/his hair. It's quite nice actually.

Of course, it requires the positioning, timing ,and a certain level of comfort with each other. Not the sort of thing one should do immediately upon meeting someone<g>.

Stay warm,
Lawrence



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