RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/16/2011 12:45:43 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Education is "free" and a right... but is it free when people pay for it with their taxes?

Precisely my point! Nothing is really free. Incidentally, I’m not keen on calling education a right either… it is another benefit.

quote:

May want to brush up on the beginnings of HMO's under Nixon.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Transcript_of_taped_conversation_between_President_Richard_Nixon_and_John_D._Ehrlichman_(1971)_that_led_to_the_HMO_act_of_1973:

Sure you dont want to reconsider your statement?

You’ve completely lost me. All the HMO act did was change some of the rules. Health care was subject to market forces both before and afterwards.

quote:

Why sunshine, do you hold stock in HMO's and the like? Maybe insurance companies? If not, then you would not be benefiting, would you. If you do, then the blood money is in your hands.

How does the insurance companies put it? "We aren't denying you care, we are denying payment for it."

I don’t own any stocks.

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Post #: 201

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/16/2011 1:44:26 PM

joether

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I've found there are two types of doctors in America: Healers and Charlatans.

EVERY doctor who I've come across that is a healer, will stop what they are doing, to help treat someone (regardless of them being rich or poor). These doctors really want to remove the suffering in the world. Whether its at the ER, a doctor's office, or as part of the organization 'Doctors without Borders". They'll try to find every possible way of bending the rules in favor of their patient. THESE are the sort of folks you want as your family doctor. My doctor, is a 'healer' type of doctor. I went through a hell of an illness (which has no name) that lasted a year and a half. You could tell the look in his eyes of being powerless when I was enduring an episode of the illness. He has won humanitarian awards for treating those that have been refuges from war zones. An amazing guy in my book. He is a medical doctor AND a healer.

Charlatans, are the ones that require money 'up front' for treatment. They rather not have to waste time on such....low folks....that make less then $100K/year. They dont like having to treat the poorest of the poor, and rather not have to stop their $80K BMW to help a child that fell down some concrete stairs at a fair and broke her arm. Rand Paul, is this class of 'doctor'; the one that really doesn't care for those he considers beneath him. These are the type of folks that give medical doctors a bad reputation. Even if they were forced to help the middle or lower class folks it is the extremely bare minimal resources and time with the patient. I've met a few doctors like this over my life time; each of them as selfish and misery as the next.

Who do you want making the rules for health care in America? The Healers or the Charlatans?

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 202

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/16/2011 1:48:02 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Who do you want making the rules for health care in America?

Me... but that's not gonna happen so I'll settle for the people.

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Post #: 203

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/16/2011 5:57:20 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

You’ve completely lost me. All the HMO act did was change some of the rules. Health care was subject to market forces both before and afterwards.

Wrong.

How did we end up with an ever increasing cost for health insurance? How did the insurance company become what it is today? It is an interesting history.

The Health Insurance Industry was given power by government laws and now they have become so powerful that they not only have a strong presence in creating new laws, they also are making doctors and hospitals comply with their standards. The Health Maintenance Organization (HMO) was designed by the government to eliminate individual health insurance.

The over use of the system caused rates to go up and in the late 1960’s it was starting to become difficult for a person to afford an individual health plan. In 1973 President Nixon approved the HMO act that the left wing was promoting to help make insurance available to everyone. Only Kaiser Permanente was an HMO in 1969 and most of the members where encouraged to join through their union. The belief of the new HMO act was to encourage lower cost insurance to everyone. At this point of the implementation of Medicare and the HMO act started the beginning of a much larger problem of unaffordable individual health insurance.

The managed health care plans were subsidized by the government which created an abundant amount of deals from insurance companies to lure the businesses to buy the new discounted low cost HMO plans. The businesses dropped the individual health plans and offered only the HMO insurance for their employees.

n the 1970’s, doctors where strong armed into joining with the HMO plans by being told that the insurance company would get their own doctors and take all your current patients away. Since a great many of people now were on HMO due to their work, there was reason for doctors to be concerned. Doctors joined so they would not lose their patients out of fear the insurance company would ruin their practice. The Insurance company would add more and more rules each time the doctor’s contract was to be renewed, and since the majority of the patients had HMO plans they accepted the conditions. If the doctor refused the new terms they were at risk for losing their patients as well as their income all at once, so they agreed to see more patients, to confidentiality agreements, and for more services requiring pre-approvals.

In the 1980’s the insurance companies started to invest in real estate deals. Unfortunately, this risky non-conservative investment flopped when the savings and loan industry crashed along with real estate values. Because of the poor judgment in risky investments, insurance companies started to come up short to cover claims. When this budget failing happened, the insurance companies started to deny claims submitted to them saying they were too expensive and doctors as well as the patients were not fighting back. Because the insurance company has gotten away with the denied claim process so well, they have continued to do this as part of the operating procedure.

http://www.bestsyndication.com/2005/Nicole-WILSON/081005-HMO-Plan-History.htm

The rest you can read for yourself. It set up a system of profit for the company while giving the insurance companies the final veto on care.

Now, gee.... profit or coverage.... What WOULD a for profit company do.

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Post #: 204

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/16/2011 6:35:03 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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"Paul, is this class of 'doctor'; the one that really doesn't care for those he considers beneath him. "

How is it you know this ? It certainly differs from everything I've heard. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, if so enlighten me. I read your opinion, I wonder how you came to that opinion because I heard things different. I heard something about a free clinic, in Kentucky IIRC.

If I'm wrong I want to know it.

T^T

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Post #: 205

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 6:45:03 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

How did we end up with an ever increasing cost for health insurance? How did the insurance company become what it is today? It is an interesting history.

The Health Insurance Industry was given power by government laws and now they have become so powerful that they not only have a strong presence in creating new laws, they also are making doctors and hospitals comply with their standards. The Health Maintenance Organization (HMO) was designed by the government to eliminate individual health insurance.

The over use of the system caused rates to go up and in the late 1960’s it was starting to become difficult for a person to afford an individual health plan. In 1973 President Nixon approved the HMO act that the left wing was promoting to help make insurance available to everyone. Only Kaiser Permanente was an HMO in 1969 and most of the members where encouraged to join through their union. The belief of the new HMO act was to encourage lower cost insurance to everyone. At this point of the implementation of Medicare and the HMO act started the beginning of a much larger problem of unaffordable individual health insurance.

The managed health care plans were subsidized by the government which created an abundant amount of deals from insurance companies to lure the businesses to buy the new discounted low cost HMO plans. The businesses dropped the individual health plans and offered only the HMO insurance for their employees.

n the 1970’s, doctors where strong armed into joining with the HMO plans by being told that the insurance company would get their own doctors and take all your current patients away. Since a great many of people now were on HMO due to their work, there was reason for doctors to be concerned. Doctors joined so they would not lose their patients out of fear the insurance company would ruin their practice. The Insurance company would add more and more rules each time the doctor’s contract was to be renewed, and since the majority of the patients had HMO plans they accepted the conditions. If the doctor refused the new terms they were at risk for losing their patients as well as their income all at once, so they agreed to see more patients, to confidentiality agreements, and for more services requiring pre-approvals.

In the 1980’s the insurance companies started to invest in real estate deals. Unfortunately, this risky non-conservative investment flopped when the savings and loan industry crashed along with real estate values. Because of the poor judgment in risky investments, insurance companies started to come up short to cover claims. When this budget failing happened, the insurance companies started to deny claims submitted to them saying they were too expensive and doctors as well as the patients were not fighting back. Because the insurance company has gotten away with the denied claim process so well, they have continued to do this as part of the operating procedure.

http://www.bestsyndication.com/2005/Nicole-WILSON/081005-HMO-Plan-History.htm

The rest you can read for yourself. It set up a system of profit for the company while giving the insurance companies the final veto on care.

Now, gee.... profit or coverage.... What WOULD a for profit company do.

Exactly my point. The rules were changed but the market was still in play. People, be they individuals or corporations, still made decisions based upon their own desires and percieved needs. Health care was still subject to reality... the reality of people. That's what the market is... people doing what people do (or don't do!), every moment of every day. People made a profit off of the health care industry before HMOs and they still do so now. All legislation does is rig... or re-rig... the rules to favor one group over another (when you get down to it, that's what all politics is). The notion that health care is not subject to market forces is simply absurd. The question is not: "How do we remove health care from market forces?" that's impossible. The question is: "How do we make health care avaliable to all?" I don't think that is impossible but it is difficult. For starters we can stop deluding ourselves that using words like "Rights" as if they were magic words can make things turn out the way we want. We need to start by looking at the situation realistically. That means acknowledging that heralth care is like any other product or service... subject to the rules of reality.

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Post #: 206

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 7:57:32 AM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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LOL... the rules were changed but the market was still in play.... how funny!

No dear, the rules were changed and Insurance BECAME the market, fixing prices, demanding compliance to their rules.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 207

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 8:08:08 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

While you are working that out (like you havent already had decades)
Im gonna go for another ultrasound and chest xray, blood and urine tests.
Ive had three ultrasounds, two MRIs, a colonoscopy, an gastroscopyI have an oncologist and an OBGYN working with me, 12 blood tests, numerous other smaller tests, and the only paperwork I have to do is show my health card when I go for my appointments. When I go into the hospital I will be there for five nights, not in a private room, and will pay for my tv and phone.
I will not get a bill, I will not have to fill out forms or have to go thru any questioning of my insurance for pre existing conditions(which there is going back twenty years), It is worry free apart from health problems and pain.. I will probably have to wait a few weeks, but yanno, its bloody worth it, knowing I can have the surgery, and dont have to worry about how im going to pay my rent, or buy food, or actually live with the cost of this operation. And any that might crop up in the future.
Its not free, its been paid thru taxes I pay from my wages.
My heart breaks for people who cannot afford their medications let alone the cost of major tests and or ops in the US.
I have a "legal RIGHT" to healthcare, why is it so hard to get something WORKING PROPERLY FOR ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS??

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Post #: 208

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 12:18:39 PM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

LOL... the rules were changed but the market was still in play.... how funny!

No dear, the rules were changed and Insurance BECAME the market, fixing prices, demanding compliance to their rules.

Did people react to the new rules?

Did they make decisions based upon the new rules?

Did these new rules have any affect on costs and prices?

The answers to all these questions is yes.

Do you even understand what I mean when I say "market?" The market is NOT just buying and selling when you happen to be doing that. The market is everyone and everything all the time. When you were busy typing away to accuse me of accepting blood money you were engaging in the market. How? Well you weren't driving your car causing additional wear and tear that would requier maintenence and repair a little sooner than otherwise. You weren't in a grocery store buying groceries when you may or may not take advantage of a sale (Oreos! Two for the price of one! oooooh!). Everything you do or don't do, every decision you make or don't make affects others and what they do and what decisions they make.

I fail to understand why you keep harping on the HMOs and the insurance companies when that is not what I am talking about at all. For the third (at least) time now! I am NOT disagreeing with you that the system needs work! I am stating that if we want to be serious about it then the first thing we need to do is be honest and accept reality. Health care is a product and a service just like housing is a product, just like food is a product. labeling these things a right does nothing to solve the problem, it only clouds the issue. People think that all they have to do is say "health care is a right," and that this absolves them from having to think about the pros and cons of various plans. They think that it makes them morraly superior and that this makes them free to condescend (sunshine?

) to anyone they even think disagrees with them instead of giving alternate ideas a fair evaluation. The whole thing devolves into nothing more than an emotional spit fest.

It divides.

And then we scratch our heads and wonder why nothing gets done.

And then we decide it's the other guys fault... because, after all, we consider that health care is a right... and those Neanderthals don't.

_____________________________

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Post #: 209

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 12:35:33 PM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

While you are working that out (like you havent already had decades)
Im gonna go for another ultrasound and chest xray, blood and urine tests.
Ive had three ultrasounds, two MRIs, a colonoscopy, an gastroscopyI have an oncologist and an OBGYN working with me, 12 blood tests, numerous other smaller tests, and the only paperwork I have to do is show my health card when I go for my appointments. When I go into the hospital I will be there for five nights, not in a private room, and will pay for my tv and phone.
I will not get a bill, I will not have to fill out forms or have to go thru any questioning of my insurance for pre existing conditions(which there is going back twenty years), It is worry free apart from health problems and pain.. I will probably have to wait a few weeks, but yanno, its bloody worth it, knowing I can have the surgery, and dont have to worry about how im going to pay my rent, or buy food, or actually live with the cost of this operation. And any that might crop up in the future.
Its not free, its been paid thru taxes I pay from my wages.
My heart breaks for people who cannot afford their medications let alone the cost of major tests and or ops in the US.
I have a "legal RIGHT" to healthcare, why is it so hard to get something WORKING PROPERLY FOR ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS??

Other than the fact that you label your tax paid benefits a right... what does any of that have to do with what I am talking about?

I hope your operation goes well for you.

_____________________________

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Post #: 210

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 12:57:54 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Other than the fact that you label your tax paid benefits a right... what does any of that have to do with what I am talking about?

It has everything to do with what WE are talking about. Because you dont wish to understand isnt our problem. The fact that the government wishes to keep us tied to a system that is broke and out of control IS our problem.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 211

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 1:04:19 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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I actually wasnt responding to you Marc, it was sposed to be a FR
Arguing with your point of view is like putting lipstick on a pig
THe canadian charter of rights and the United nations charter of rights seems to disagree with you
Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 25
Charter of Rights for Canada section seven I believe

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 5/17/2011 1:05:50 PM >

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Post #: 212

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 1:39:56 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

It has everything to do with what WE are talking about. Because you dont wish to understand isnt our problem. The fact that the government wishes to keep us tied to a system that is broke and out of control IS our problem.

Emphasis mine.

NO FUCKING SHIT!

Why do you persist in thinking that I am in disagreement with that?

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Post #: 213

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 1:42:16 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I actually wasnt responding to you Marc, it was sposed to be a FR

Okay

quote:

Arguing with your point of view is like putting lipstick on a pig

That's original.

quote:

THe canadian charter of rights and the United nations charter of rights seems to disagree with you

I don't care.

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Post #: 214

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 1:45:17 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I actually wasnt responding to you Marc, it was sposed to be a FR

Okay

quote:

Arguing with your point of view is like putting lipstick on a pig

That's original.

quote:

THe canadian charter of rights and the United nations charter of rights seems to disagree with you

I don't care.

Obviously....
But, Ill take their word over your exclamations denying it.

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Post #: 215

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 1:51:48 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Obviously....
But, Ill take their word over your exclamations denying it.

That's your right.

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Post #: 216

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/17/2011 7:44:30 PM

outhere69

Posts: 1302
Joined: 1/25/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan
Live in Arizona like I do and the illegals DO think health care is a right. A right for ME to pay for THEM. That's why obamadingdong wants them in the USA... good little burro voters for the future with their hands out.

You are absolutely right!!! And Fargle has a point as well. You want cheap health care? Pay cash. Watch your doctors eyes light up like a pinball machine. Now that isn't all that practical when you are having a kidney replaced, I realize. But the fact is that we need more people paying into the system and fewer people taking a free ride. If you address THAT SINGULAR ISSUE you will find it is the cure for a large number of the problems that plague this country.

You have to be shitting me. If I'd paid cash for my neurosurgery, it would've been in excess of $25,000. The local joints don't give cash discounts.

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Post #: 217

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/18/2011 4:40:24 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
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Maybe he's never had any surgery and thinks it works the same as buying a car?
"I'm paying cash! let's negotiate a discount here!"

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Post #: 218

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/18/2011 7:01:00 AM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Marc2b
The question is not: "How do we remove health care from market forces?" that's impossible. The question is: "How do we make health care avaliable to all?" I don't think that is impossible but it is difficult.

Sorry it's not "impossible". Nor is it even "difficult". It's really very easy.

Every other comparable Western country has achieved it. All you need is Govt and politicians who choose to act in the interests of all the people, and not of the healthcare vested interests. Once you have that, the rest is easy. There are lots of successful models available to copy if you can't design your own.

And the best bit? If you do it properly, you'll find it saves you a whole heap of money. The US spends more on healthcare (as a % of GNP) than other Western countries that have 'socialised medicine' - about twice as much. So you can have universal health care that's free at the point of delivery and save a fortune in the process.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

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Post #: 219

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/18/2011 8:41:07 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Sorry it's not "impossible".

Yes it is. Because the only way to remove health care from market forces would be to remove it from reality. I've already been through this once and I don't care to go through it again. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

quote:

Nor is it even "difficult". It's really very easy.

That's debatable. It would depend upon onces definition of health care, I suppose.

quote:

Every other comparable Western country has achieved it.

That too is debatable. I continue to hear how wonderful Canada's system is yet I continue to see Canadian licence plates in the parking lots of our doctor's offices.

quote:

All you need is Govt and politicians who choose to act in the interests of all the people, and not of the healthcare vested interests. Once you have that, the rest is easy. There are lots of successful models available to copy if you can't design your own.

And the best bit? If you do it properly, you'll find it saves you a whole heap of money. The US spends more on healthcare (as a % of GNP) than other Western countries that have 'socialised medicine' - about twice as much. So you can have universal health care that's free at the point of delivery and save a fortune in the process.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

Once again! I am not arguing against the notion of a health care benefit. I am arguing against calling it a right because it gives people a false notion of reality and sets a dangerous precedent... namely, the belief that we can legislate reality to our liking. It is also a cheap way for people to give themselves an ego stroke off (I was accused of taking blood money for Christ's fucking sake!).

What I would like to see is for us to first abandon the notion that this is a matter for the Federal government and to leave it up to the state governments (this is not just a health care issue for me but a Constitutional one). Let each state decide for itself what it wants to do. If they want to have a fully tax payer funded health care benefit, they can. If they want no government assistance or something in between then they can have that as well.

This would have serveral benefits. First, it's a lot easier to convince the majority of twenty or thirty million people than it is three hundred million people to vote this way or that way. Second it creates a testing ground for various options. If the people of Colorado (for example) don't like the way their system is working they can say: "Hey! Look at what their doing in Main. That seems to be working pretty well. We should try that!" Third, if a state fucks it up, it means the people of that state only have to pay for their own fuck-ups, and can't inflict the cost of their fuck-ups on of people in other states. When the national government fucks up, we all pay.

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Post #: 220

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