RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (Full Version)

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lockedaway -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 1:38:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan Live in Arizona like I do and the illegals DO think health care is a right. A right for ME to pay for THEM. That's why obamadingdong wants them in the USA... good little burro voters for the future with their hands out. You are absolutely right!!! And Fargle has a point as well. You want cheap health care? Pay cash. Watch your doctors eyes light up like a pinball machine. Now that isn't all that practical when you are having a kidney replaced, I realize. But the fact is that we need more people paying into the system and fewer people taking a free ride. If you address THAT SINGULAR ISSUE you will find it is the cure for a large number of the problems that plague this country.

VioletGray -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 2:12:59 PM)
The Young Turks had a pretty interesting take on this subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wYLcKvWC3c

Termyn8or -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 2:43:18 PM)
Interesting video. Learn from it. Learn how to spin ! They conscript me at work, The fuckers just won't give me the money if I don't work. I AM A SLAVE ! BTW, copx in Cleveland START at $27/hour. I'm not bitching though, they have to be about halfway to a lawyer before they can put them out on the street. And THESE STREETS ? Pay them. I don't care if they make almost as much money as I do, it is worth every penny. T^T

Louve00 -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:07:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Does it matter whether we call it a right, a benefit, a privilege or a service? What difference does that make to the DomKen's of this world who need medical help immediately? A person's right to life precedes all other rights and this is a matter of life and death. The adjectives most commonly used by people here to describe a situation where a health crisis causes bankruptcy are "unthinkable" and "barbaric". I find the blase way people rationalise the destruction of a person's life on account a perfectly ordinary treatable malady, callous and horrifying. If any Govt behaved the way DK's health insurers behaved, the Right would be outraged, shrieking about 'death panels' and similar hyperbole. If a Govt cannot ensure citizens can walk the streets in safety and security, then it gets a fail and thrown out at the next election. How is health any different? Are some people here saying health is not a matter of personal safety and security? In my view, any Govt in an affluent Western country that is unable to offer all its citizens quality health care loses its moral right to govern - it has failed to deliver on a basic obligation. Making the health of all citizens secondary to the 'rights' of privileged stakeholders (eg doctors) and for-profit industries is an utter perversion of the idea of 'commonwealth'. It makes a difference to people who can't relate. Oh yea, they can say what they'd do for who, and all that and they probably would. But when/if they ever have to actually experience a serious illness and the "consequences" that ensue (like insurance not approving major tests, or flat our dropping them), its only then, when they too face bankruptcy to save their own life that they can relate to it. Until then, there won't be any "ah ha" moments. Until then, compassion just costs money to them....and means nothing else.

lockedaway -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:18:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Does it matter whether we call it a right, a benefit, a privilege or a service? What difference does that make to the DomKen's of this world who need medical help immediately? A person's right to life precedes all other rights and this is a matter of life and death. The adjectives most commonly used by people here to describe a situation where a health crisis causes bankruptcy are "unthinkable" and "barbaric". I find the blase way people rationalise the destruction of a person's life on account a perfectly ordinary treatable malady, callous and horrifying. If any Govt behaved the way DK's health insurers behaved, the Right would be outraged, shrieking about 'death panels' and similar hyperbole. If a Govt cannot ensure citizens can walk the streets in safety and security, then it gets a fail and thrown out at the next election. How is health any different? Are some people here saying health is not a matter of personal safety and security? In my view, any Govt in an affluent Western country that is unable to offer all its citizens quality health care loses its moral right to govern - it has failed to deliver on a basic obligation. Making the health of all citizens secondary to the 'rights' of privileged stakeholders (eg doctors) and for-profit industries is an utter perversion of the idea of 'commonwealth'. It makes a difference to people who can't relate. Oh yea, they can say what they'd do for who, and all that and they probably would. But when/if they ever have to actually experience a serious illness and the "consequences" that ensue (like insurance not approving major tests, or flat our dropping them), its only then, when they too face bankruptcy to save their own life that they can relate to it. Until then, there won't be any "ah ha" moments. Until then, compassion just costs money to them....and means nothing else. Wow...what a post. Where to begin with "thoughts" like these. Newsflash for ya! The government is only wealthy because of its FREAKIN' tax base. If the citizens of the country are broke because they are over taxed and their gasoline costs them $200.00 per week and no one has the money to pay for their services or buy their products....then the government is not affluent. Ok? Tell me you understand that very basic premise. When you have a country whose debt is equal to or exceeding its GDP...believe me, it is NOT WEALTHY. Next...Yes, it matters whether you call it a right or a privilege under the Constitution. It is a due process issue. Finally, in order for you to insure that there is access to healthcare you must first determine who gets healthcare. Do illegal immigrants who do not pay State, Federal or FICA get this wonderful health care you are droning on about? The United States is a beautiful country. Beautiful because of our Judeo-Christian beliefs that caused us to have our belief in a Creator as the centerpiece of the nation and therefore, we are endowed by certain inalienable rights among those the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This country was founded a couple hundred years ago, tell me when health care was one of the innumerated rights and tell me why the Founding Fathers didn't say that we have a right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and the affordable services of a doctor who has a cap placed on the value of his/her services. Go on...tell me why they didn't say that.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:20:59 PM)
~FR "I dont want to pay for them!" or something very similar... we have all seen/heard people say that when it comes to health care. Are they that stupid that they cant figure out they already do pay for "them"?

lockedaway -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:27:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~FR "I dont want to pay for them!" or something very similar... we have all seen/heard people say that when it comes to health care. Are they that stupid that they cant figure out they already do pay for "them"? Well G*****n, Tazzy, isn't that the issue? No, we don't want to pay for universal health care. We want illegal alienations deported from the country and we want the border sealed. We want portability in our health care plans, we want insurance premiums (at least to a certain level) to be tax deductible, we want insurance companies to be encouraged to offer some very specific and narrowly tailored health plans at low prices and more. The fact that we are already paying and our entire country is going bankrupt doesn't make it right. And it doesn't make it a defacto certainty that we can't change either.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:34:26 PM)
quote: This country was founded a couple hundred years ago, tell me when the health care was one of the innumerated rights and tell me why the Founding Fathers didn't say that we have a right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and the affordable services of a doctor who has a cap placed on the value of his/her services. You really want to know what our Founding Fathers thought about health care? Located between two large rivers, South Philadelphia up to ten blocks away was essentially a swamp until the Civil War. So, there were seasonal epidemics of malaria, yellow fever, typhoid and poliomyelitis at the hospital until the early twentieth century. Philadelphia was a port city, so sailors brought in cases of venereal disease, scurvy, even an occasional case of anthrax or leprosy. During the Industrial Revolution of the nineteenth century, tuberculosis, rheumatic fever and diphtheria were part of clinical practice. But underlying the ebb and flow of environmental effects, there was a steady population of illness which did not change a great deal from 1776 to 1948. These patients were all poor, because the rules in Benjamin Franklin's handwriting restricted service to the "sick poor, and only if there is room, for those who can pay." In 1948 there was a poor box for those who might feel grateful, but no credit manager or official payment office. The matter had been considered, but the cost of collection was considered greater than the likely revenue. When Mr. Daniel Gill was offered the position as the hospital's first credit manager, it was suggested that he be given a tenth of what he collected. To his lifelong regret, Dan Gill regretted that he refused an offer that he had felt he could not afford to accept. http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/1432.htm

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:38:11 PM)
quote: Well G*****n, Tazzy, isn't that the issue? No, we don't want to pay for universal health care. We want illegal alienations deported from the country and we want the border sealed. We want portability in our health care plans, we want insurance premiums (at least to a certain level) to be tax deductible, we want insurance companies to be encouraged to offer some very specific and narrowly tailored health plans at low prices and more. The fact that we are already paying and our entire country is going bankrupt doesn't make it right. And it doesn't make it a defacto certainty that we can't change either. I dont want a damn company telling me I have the right, or dont have the right, to get a medical treatment a Physician has determined is in my best interest. I dont want a damn company taking money from the top to pay their CEO's bonuses while denying claims because someone had the sniffles two years earlier. I dont want my claim passing through 16 different departments before someone rubber stamps it denied. Insurance companies in part are the reason we are in the shape we are in.

lockedaway -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:42:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Well G****n, Tazzy, isn't that the issue? No, we don't want to pay for universal health care. We want illegal alienations deported from the country and we want the border sealed. We want portability in our health care plans, we want insurance premiums (at least to a certain level) to be tax deductible, we want insurance companies to be encouraged to offer some very specific and narrowly tailored health plans at low prices and more. The fact that we are already paying and our entire country is going bankrupt doesn't make it right. And it doesn't make it a defacto certainty that we can't change either. I dont want a damn company telling me I have the right, or dont have the right, to get a medical treatment a Physician has determined is in my best interest. I dont want a damn company taking money from the top to pay their CEO's bonuses while denying claims because someone had the sniffles two years earlier. I dont want my claim passing through 16 different departments before someone rubber stamps it denied. Insurance companies in part are the reason we are in the shape we are in. What the hell are you talking about????? You are going to get that (known as health care rationing) with universal health care and your God---Barrack Obama---said so! Do you not remember that? You are going to get a hell of a lot more health care rationing with universal health care than my mother will get with medicare and her supplement plan. OK? Your dear, dear, dear, friend (the government beaurocrat) is going to base what health care you get on ACTUARY TABLES and there is going to be a lot of senior citizens getting FUCKED in extremis*! What you just can't grasp is that the thing you fear is the thing you are fighting for the hardest.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:44:31 PM)
Got news for you, we already have rationing... all around us... the health care is full of it.. and its at the hands of insurance companies who are there merely to make a profit.

lockedaway -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:49:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Got news for you, we already have rationing... all around us... the health care is full of it.. and its at the hands of insurance companies who are there merely to make a profit. Sheesh...I have to give up on you, Tazz. You can lead a horse to drink but you can't make him water. Look...my mother is 80 years old, ok? If she falls and breaks her hip, she will get a hip replacement. SHE WILL NOT GET ONE UNDER UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE AND O'SCUMBAG SAID SO. Ok? Do you remember the speech when he said that some people are not going to get every surgery they want, they may get a walker and a bottle of meds. You don't remember that? My mother is beyond the life expectancy of a normal woman. Might she have a hard time getting the hip replacement? Maybe but when I lay 10k in hundred dollar bills on the doctors desk, I'm going to be pretty successful. I have that freedom right now as do the doctors. That all comes to an end when the government reviews every medical procedure b/c IF THE DOCTOR TAKES THE CASH HE WILL LOSE HIS LICENSE. Do you understand me???? You are arguing for something so Orwellian and so horrifying and you don't even realize it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:53:32 PM)
quote: SHE WILL NOT GET ONE UNDER UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE AND O'SCUMBAG SAID SO. When did he say that? Oh yeah, thats right, He didnt say that. Here is what he did say.... “I don’t know how much that hip replacement cost,” Mr. Obama said in the interview with David Leonhardt of The Times. “I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement, just because she’s my grandmother. Whether, sort of in the aggregate, society making those decisions to give my grandmother, or everybody else’s aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they’re terminally ill is a sustainable model is a very difficult question.” He went on to say: “If somebody told me that my grandmother couldn’t have a hip replacement and she had to lie there in misery in the waning days of her life, that would be pretty upsetting.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/us/politics/30web-baker.html quote: That all comes to an end when the government reviews every medical procedure b/c IF THE DOCTOR TAKES THE CASH HE WILL LOSE HIS LICENSE. Show me where this is supposed to happen. Paying for preventative care is so much cheaper than the system we have now. You can give up on me all you want. I work in the field... I know what they do and dont do... I know the goals and I know paying some damn company thousands of dollars to drop you like a rock because you got sick isnt working.

vincentML -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 4:53:56 PM)
quote: The United States is a beautiful country. Beautiful because of our Judeo-Christian beliefs that caused us to have our belief in a Creator as the centerpiece of the nation and therefore, we are endowed by certain inalienable rights among those the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This country was founded a couple hundred years ago, tell me when health care was one of the innumerated rights and tell me why the Founding Fathers didn't say that we have a right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and the affordable services of a doctor who has a cap placed on the value of his/her services. Go on...tell me why they didn't say that. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, . . . Jesus in Luke 14:13

juliaoceania -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 5:02:28 PM)
French v American doctors... interesting read about the cost of educating and insuring doctors.... I do not see why American doctors deserve to make so much, Rand may call making him treat people on government insurance slavery.... I call overcharging people for treatment because you know they have no choice immoral. Here is the link American doctors' salaries are high for several reasons. The first is the cost of education. In France and Great Britain, students go directly to medical school after high school, and their entire educations are free. In the United States, students must first get a bachelor's degree before attending medical school, and the average medical student's debt is $155,000. Then come at least three years of residency, which usually pays less than $50,000 a year. After all that, it's no wonder doctors feel entitled to six-figure salaries. Another reason U.S. doctors get paid a lot is market forces: In a single-payer system like Britain's, the government can bargain down the prices of treatments, which leads to lower income for doctors. No such entity exists in the United States—Medicare is big, but not that big.

Termyn8or -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 8:39:32 PM)
"American doctors' salaries are high for several reasons. " You don't say. It couldn't be because when they operate on your foot you'll never play the violin again could it ? This is an extremely litagious society where everyone wants a free ride. We all want to win a million dollar lawsuit. Nothing further right now because it would likely get offensive to the scumbags in this country. T^T

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 8:50:22 PM)
That would have nothing to do with the fact that Dr's are on pedestals and our society tends to forgive them their mistakes instead of making them accountable for what they do wrong, would it?

Louve00 -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 9:09:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lockedaway Wow...what a post. Where to begin with "thoughts" like these. Newsflash for ya! The government is only wealthy because of its FREAKIN' tax base. If the citizens of the country are broke because they are over taxed and their gasoline costs them $200.00 per week and no one has the money to pay for their services or buy their products....then the government is not affluent. Ok? Tell me you understand that very basic premise. When you have a country whose debt is equal to or exceeding its GDP...believe me, it is NOT WEALTHY. Next...Yes, it matters whether you call it a right or a privilege under the Constitution. It is a due process issue. Finally, in order for you to insure that there is access to healthcare you must first determine who gets healthcare. Do illegal immigrants who do not pay State, Federal or FICA get this wonderful health care you are droning on about? The United States is a beautiful country. Beautiful because of our Judeo-Christian beliefs that caused us to have our belief in a Creator as the centerpiece of the nation and therefore, we are endowed by certain inalienable rights among those the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This country was founded a couple hundred years ago, tell me when health care was one of the innumerated rights and tell me why the Founding Fathers didn't say that we have a right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and the affordable services of a doctor who has a cap placed on the value of his/her services. Go on...tell me why they didn't say that. Because of its tax base???? You mean the one with so many corporate tax loopholes that big corporations don't even pay a penny, and we do miss out on literally billions of $ in taxes because of those loopholes?? Or do you mean the one where the GOP got all up in arms over the tax cuts expiring (Note, I said tax cuts EXPIRING, not any new taxes), but that never happened, either. So revenue from taxes doesn't make us "wealthy", let that be your newsflash!! The basic premise I understand is we spend too much time on ensuring corporate welfare and making the super rich happy, while the blue collar working man who makes this country literally run has to suffer because the white collar greedy bastards had no regard for ethics (the mess when Wall St collapsed, and the more we learn about the why's of that, it was a move that was eventually known to lead us to the place we're in) and the blue collar man had to pay for it all with his taxes. Now he can't afford what he needs. The job he had was taken away. He struggles, while people say he wants to struggle for a free check [8\|] You talk about illegal immigration. The same big corporations (along with smaller corporations) love hiring illegals. So we have to get everyone on the same page, tighten the boarders, fine the perpetrators that hire illegal immigrants, giving them incentive to come here to begin with and maybe some progress might be made there. But the issuance of a revised SS card, proving citizenship beyond just "buying someone's SS#", would also be a good start. We haven't even begun to address medicare/medicaid fraud either. There too...it is businesses creating that fraud NOT the gov't. Maybe if the gov't were implenting a single payer system, the temptation to make more than the profit your entitled to make will vanish?? The US of A is a beautiful country that fought to break free from a bigger country to become its own entity. Tell me Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness will result from people crippled and unable to even get basic care if they're a few pounds overweight, have high blood pressure from their stress, genetic reasons, or whatever, much less develop diseases and cancer from malnutrition and lack of healthcare...at the very least preventative health care. First of all that "Life" will lead to death, and they won't have the liberty to take care of themselves because they don't have the means (making our country a weaker country in the end, as we lose the manpower of this country to health issues). And just how happy will they be?? You don't buy a pet if you can't take care of it, you don't plant a garden if you don't have the time to tend to it and you expect people to magically stay healthy enough to work and keep the country moving, if you don't give them a way to do that. Maybe they didn't say it literally because they thought we were smart enough to know how to take care of our own. Apparently, while other countries have mastered that feat, we haven't.

Owner59 -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 9:16:41 PM)
Thanks Louve00, Well put. Imagine healthcare as water with only a select few controlling it,who gets it and for how much. The only thing a public option would have offered would have been an alternative way to get water.One where the little guy could drink.

Termyn8or -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/14/2011 9:18:38 PM)
Y'know taz, you really split me on this one. Everyone knows that a good part of the cost of healthcare goes for malpractice insurance. But if the guy operates on you is he incompetent and knows it and is just out to make money, or is he really trying to help ? So now it comes down to intent ? Like hate crimes and all that. If a plumber floods the basement of your house, or an electrician burns it down, what is the liability. I remodeled one of my Mother's houses and found that a contractor had used a piece of an extension cord to wire up a new outlet. That wasn't so bad but he incorrectly IDed the neutral and wired it backwrds, which makes a GFI MORE DANGEROUS than a regular old style outlet. So licensing doesn't mean shit. So how do you tell ? How do you know ? The fact is you don't. T^T

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