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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 4:09:18 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

If you honestly think a "slave" cannot be educated, have a career, have a family, and so forth, then you've either fallen for the internet garbage about slavery, or simply not met the right person/Master.




Now you are putting words into my mouth...


No... I'm not... you wrote:

quote:


I identified as submissive in my relationships because I was involved with school, had demands on my time, had a child at one point I was responsible for, etc etc etc. To me slavery was antithetical to maintaining these other responsibilities...



quote:


Why do you take it personally as to why I chose to label myself in a particular way in reference to being a slave or a submissive?


I didn't/don't... again, you're presenting a position I don't hold.  Just as you've repeatedly done.  Self-identify as sub, slave, or a whatever.  That's your choice... I only ask that if you wish to inquire of my views, that you at least present them correctly.



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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 4:37:17 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am done here, I made my point, which is we ALL have varied motivations and reasons why we identify the way that we do, and universalizing those motivations is a useless endeavor, because more than likely the person who does so will be wrong

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 4:43:02 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I made my point...


Yep... as have I.  Have a nice evening.



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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 4:47:13 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

"My" understanding is that slaves give up control over their lives, which does not differ from the other responses on this thread, does it? I didn't think it was productive for MY life and in the fulfillment of MY obligations to be calling myself a slave. If you take exception to why I choose to live MY life the way "I" choose, that is your issue, because I assure you, it has nothing to do with anyone else.


A slave can give up all control of her life.... a smart slave choses a man whose level of control matches what she is able to give up.

Not all men want to control the children, the career or other areas.

Not debating whether the decision was right for you, julia.... just pointing out that slavery doesn't have to be the way you described.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 4:51:27 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



Teh slavery can beez scrumpdillyicious!!!



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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 4:58:51 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

"My" understanding is that slaves give up control over their lives, which does not differ from the other responses on this thread, does it? I didn't think it was productive for MY life and in the fulfillment of MY obligations to be calling myself a slave. If you take exception to why I choose to live MY life the way "I" choose, that is your issue, because I assure you, it has nothing to do with anyone else.


A slave can give up all control of her life.... a smart slave choses a man whose level of control matches what she is able to give up.

Not all men want to control the children, the career or other areas.

Not debating whether the decision was right for you, julia.... just pointing out that slavery doesn't have to be the way you described.


I do not think it is that way for everyone.... I was only speaking of what my perceptions of what slavery means...

Here is the thing, we all have our own reasons why we gravitate toward a label or we don't. Our perceptions of a thing that guide whether we are attracted to it or we are not. Usually, we have positive perceptions of those things that attract us, and we may have erroneous perceptions about the things that attract other people.

Some people think that slaves live for their master's pleasure, but submissives are out for their own, for example. Now, maybe that assumption is right for some people, but it isn't universally right. That perception could convince someone they were a slave and not a submissive.... whether they are right or not.

It is best to define what these terms mean to you instead of telling other people what their roles are in relationships...perhaps I could have communicated that opinion a little better, but it always seems to me whenever people talk about this subject they always make their label sound just that much more better than another person's. That annoys me, and I think it is sort of destructive, too. I do not think slave sorts of people have less feelings, are mindless, or robots. I do not think they do not have personalities, nor do I think they are doormats. But I do not think that submissives as a rule are less submissive or have intrinsically different reasons why they obey than a slave does, either. I think it is just whatever works for you in your life, and that is about how it goes in my world



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/15/2011 5:07:19 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 6:52:30 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

"My" understanding is that slaves give up control over their lives, which does not differ from the other responses on this thread, does it? I didn't think it was productive for MY life and in the fulfillment of MY obligations to be calling myself a slave. If you take exception to why I choose to live MY life the way "I" choose, that is your issue, because I assure you, it has nothing to do with anyone else.


A slave can give up all control of her life.... a smart slave choses a man whose level of control matches what she is able to give up.

Not all men want to control the children, the career or other areas.

Not debating whether the decision was right for you, julia.... just pointing out that slavery doesn't have to be the way you described.


That perception could convince someone they were a slave and not a submissive


And the down-side to that (or the other way around... i.e., a sub not a slave) would be what???

quote:



...it always seems to me whenever people talk about this subject they always make their label sound just that much more better than another person's.



I haven't witnessed that in this thread from any poster, including myself?!!  In fact, in my first post to this thread, I specifically stated, "...with neither sub or slave being better or worse than the other, just different."  Thus, it may have more to do with some people's perception of what's being stated, as opposed to what's actually being stated. (shrugs)





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 5/15/2011 6:57:04 PM >

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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 7:05:05 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I thought you were done.... shrugs

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 7:17:19 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

-=Bottom=-
It'a all about BDSM. 

A bottom refers to the person that is on the receiving end in a BDSM relationship or a BDSM scene.  They don't necessarily give up any power to the top, even if they give up control during a scene or preset situations within the relationship. 

-=Submissive=-
It more about domination/submission, even if BDSM is involved. 

A submissive takes the subordinate position in a D/s scene or relationship.  The degree of control is negotiated by agreement, they do not have to surrender all control.  The rewards usually include the pleasures of service and/or control.  Often, struggle or suffering is optional, hence the negotiation aspect.

-=Slave=-
It's about absolute authority, paramount to ownership.

A slave, contrary to common belief, does not have to be a submissive or have a submissive personality.  However, they are a subordinate that surrenders control in a TPE.  A slave will struggle to do even that which is not pleasurable.  Often, it is fulfilling this service that brings reward to a slave, suffering isn't optional.



In all........ for M and I, it's accepted that suffering IS optional. Other than that, your description is close to ours.:)

agirl


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RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 8:16:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		julia, you are entitled to your perception, i am not arguing that point. all i am saying is that it is not everyone's perception.

quote:

Here is the thing, we all have our own reasons why we gravitate toward a label or we don't. Our perceptions of a thing that guide whether we are attracted to it or we are not. Usually, we have positive perceptions of those things that attract us, and we may have erroneous perceptions about the things that attract other people.


Years.. seems like eons... ago I told a Dom I knew on line that I believed he was gorean. He flipped, ripped me quite a few new ones and would not speak to me for three years. Ok, my bad, I didnt realize he was so anti-gor.

Then one day I got a message from him.. an appology, of sorts... he said that because of me telling him what I did, he picked up the books and forced himself to read... and discovered what I saw within himself.

I have seen slaves I knew where really submissives, and subs who I knew were slaves. Most of them were what I saw not because of the women they were, but because of the relationship they were in and how that affected them.

I firmly believe a woman can be submissive towards many men... and slave to a rare few. Its not always the men that make the slave, it takes both, a commitment to the relationship and the internal drive and discovery they both go on together.

I am sure someone will come along, read my post, and put it in a much better way than I did.

quote:

That annoys me, and I think it is sort of destructive, too. I do not think slave sorts of people have less feelings, are mindless, or robots. I do not think they do not have personalities, nor do I think they are doormats. But I do not think that submissives as a rule are less submissive or have intrinsically different reasons why they obey than a slave does, either. I think it is just whatever works for you in your life, and that is about how it goes in my world


I have said this before, and will do so again...

quote:

There is nothing I love about slavery... there is nothing I hate about it either. To me its like breathing. Something I do day in and day out. Sure, I tend to rebel against it, I tend to get a bit pushy, I tend to downright deny what I am.... then a simple word brings me up short and I have no choice but to be who I am.


And, to add...

quote:

sub, slave, bitch, brat, girl, boy, it, mine.....

The name doesn't mean much except to those within the relationship.

After all, that is all that matters.


If you, or your so decided to call you a slave, so be it. If they decide to call you a princess, so be it. If they decide to call you the ubarslutoftheworldbarnone... who am I to argue? To them, that IS what you are. Unless my opinion is asked, its exactly what it is.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Learning - 5/15/2011 9:00:40 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I thought you were done...



No, actually it was you that stated you were "done", not me.  I stated I'd made my point as well, and wished you a good evening. See below...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am done here...




So once more, with regard to your below comment...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

That perception could convince someone they were a slave and not a submissive



I ask you again... and the down-side to this (or the other way around... i.e., a sub not a slave) would be what???  Please understand, I'm not being adversarial, I'm genuinely curious as to what you view is the down-side to this?



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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 4:20:55 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		That they got into a relationship that was ill fitting because they didn't know themselves well enough or know what was out there well enough to pick a more compatible partner. I would have thought that was obvious.

We get new posters here all the time saying just this about their relationships. That suddenly he's cheating on her, being verbally abusive etc and claiming she has no say because she's a slave.


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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 6:56:31 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Years.. seems like eons... ago I told a Dom I knew on line that I believed he was gorean. He flipped, ripped me quite a few new ones and would not speak to me for three years. Ok, my bad, I didnt realize he was so anti-gor.

Then one day I got a message from him.. an appology, of sorts... he said that because of me telling him what I did, he picked up the books and forced himself to read... and discovered what I saw within himself.

I have seen slaves I knew where really submissives, and subs who I knew were slaves. Most of them were what I saw not because of the women they were, but because of the relationship they were in and how that affected them.

I firmly believe a woman can be submissive towards many men... and slave to a rare few. Its not always the men that make the slave, it takes both, a commitment to the relationship and the internal drive and discovery they both go on together.

I am sure someone will come along, read my post, and put it in a much better way than I did.


Here is the trouble with wording it this way, which bear with me while I try to articulate it...



It does sound as though you are saying that slavery is deeper and more committed than other relationships, it is so rare because people can't go there very often. I suppose it rankles me when I see people saying things like this because I have this vanilla sister who has been married for 25 years. In her world view, her marriage is the end all be all of relationships. Unless you have been married for 25 years you cannot possibly know what love is, what commitment is, etc etc etc. She has denigrated long term relationships I have had because I was not married to my significant other for a couple of decades as "not so important". She even told my mom that a relationship she had was not so important because she wasn't married to the guy, even though she was with him for 2 decades and took care of him after he had a stroke for a couple of years.

So, when I hear people talk about going to a deeper level with slavery, etc, how rare it is, etc... I suppose I think of my vanilla sister, and her comparing the rest of the world to her situation and how we all don't measure up. I need to release this to the universe and learn an important lesson.... recently I found out her marriage is in trouble, so perhaps all of these years her nonsense was really about her own insecurity, and her desperate need to believe what she was experiencing was so much more bitchen than what the rest of us had.


In the end, in my view, you call it what you call it, it either satisfies you or it don't, it either works or it breaks down. This is all about the people in an individual relationship, it has nothing to do with the rest of the world, what they label it, or what they think about it.

I will still stick to labels are best when they are self applied...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 7:42:10 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Resident Sadist did the best job of outlining the conventional view of the difference, and it is one, that in that context I agree with wholeheatedly.

However, there is another way of viewing it, which is still, I think, my tagline.

Great slaves are made by great relationships


I date strong willed, often dominant woman, usually hot and attractive ones used to walking over men. You don't simply slap a collar on someone like that, create a ritual or two and create a slave. Hell, you don't even get a submissive when you first open that box!

Slowly you overcome their expectations that you will cave, that you are a self centered ass, show them that you truly and deeply "get" them. You give them room to be themselves, you see them as the amazing strong, dynamic women that they are and you don't crush that. In short you create the sort of trust many speak of but few ever actually create or experience. Slowly, that woman surrenders more and more to you. They do not become some caricaturization of a kajira, all kneely and servile. You tame a lioness, she is and always will be a lioness but she becomes YOUR lioness.

She hates this analogy but there is a vast difference between taming a poodle and making it docile and taming a lioness. The results look VERY different but there are people who prefer one over the other. One isn't better overall, simply better for that man and that relationship.


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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 10:42:39 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That they got into a relationship that was ill fitting because they didn't know themselves well enough or know what was out there well enough to pick a more compatible partner. I would have thought that was obvious.

We get new posters here all the time saying just this about their relationships. That suddenly he's cheating on her, being verbally abusive etc and claiming she has no say because she's a slave.



So, clearly in your view, just because someone identifies as a "slave", then they can be "cheated on" and "verbally abused" -- is that it?!!  I don't know where you got that load of TOTAL BULLSHIT from, but that's exactly what it is... BULLSHIT -- I would have thought that was "obvious"?!!  Where do people get this garbage from?!!

Clearly some people need to learn the difference between a Wanker and a Master... abuse has NOTHING -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- to do with being a slave to another. (Hint: a self-indentified sub can be abused, a self-identified Dom can be abusive, and GASP... even a vanilla person can be abused/abusive.) JEEEEZ!!!





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 5/16/2011 11:06:05 AM >

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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 12:44:56 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That they got into a relationship that was ill fitting because they didn't know themselves well enough or know what was out there well enough to pick a more compatible partner. I would have thought that was obvious.

We get new posters here all the time saying just this about their relationships. That suddenly he's cheating on her, being verbally abusive etc and claiming she has no say because she's a slave.



So, clearly in your view, just because someone identifies as a "slave", then they can be "cheated on" and "verbally abused" -- is that it?!!  I don't know where you got that load of TOTAL BULLSHIT from, but that's exactly what it is... BULLSHIT -- I would have thought that was "obvious"?!!  Where do people get this garbage from?!!

Clearly some people need to learn the difference between a Wanker and a Master... abuse has NOTHING -- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- to do with being a slave to another. (Hint: a self-indentified sub can be abused, a self-identified Dom can be abusive, and GASP... even a vanilla person can be abused/abusive.) JEEEEZ!!!






Is this chick always this stupid and reactionary?

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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 1:02:20 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


So, clearly in your view, just because someone identifies as a "slave", then they can be "cheated on" and "verbally abused" -- is that it?!!  I don't know where you got that load of TOTAL BULLSHIT from, but that's exactly what it is... BULLSHIT -- I would have thought that was "obvious"?!!  Where do people get this garbage from?!!




I didn't see her stating this was her view.  I saw her mentioning the risk of a newbie who is not in tune with herself being mislead.  We see it all the time.  And believe it or not, getting duped can happen to the best of us.

I don't think I've ever seen DES say slaves are cheated on and abused, simply because they're slaves.


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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 1:11:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


So, clearly in your view, just because someone identifies as a "slave", then they can be "cheated on" and "verbally abused" -- is that it?!!  I don't know where you got that load of TOTAL BULLSHIT from, but that's exactly what it is... BULLSHIT -- I would have thought that was "obvious"?!!  Where do people get this garbage from?!!




I didn't see her stating this was her view.  I saw her mentioning the risk of a newbie who is not in tune with herself being mislead.  We see it all the time.  And believe it or not, getting duped can happen to the best of us.

I don't think I've ever seen DES say slaves are cheated on and abused, simply because they're slaves.


I figured out that we were both talking about separate issues and decided to shelf my responses. I figured I wasn't communicating right, or she was intentionally misunderstanding me.... or a little of both...

I should never have responded to her post in the first place... her initial response to this thread waved the banner of "I'm right, and I am not changing my mind" from the word "go"... which usually doesn't lead to productive interchanges

My disclaimer: If people wanna call themselves slaves, live that ideal in anyway they want, I am happy for them if they are happy!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 1:17:43 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		RS was pretty close to the way I would have phrased it.  My only exception would have been the part of TPE, as I find that might be a goal, but not always in a M/s dynamic.  Other than that, I might have used a different word or two, but the basic definitions would have been the same, so I'll save Myself the typing.  I'd rather go with something else. 

I tend to think, OP, that the best idea going is to figure out what these terms mean to you.  This doesn't meant that you shouldn't ask other people their definitions while figuring out, or exploring your own.  You'll find that you get a basic definition going for yourself and then you adjust it in your head as necessary.  I've certainly had certain nuances and refinements for My definitions over the years.

The important thing to remember is that each person does that for themselves.  They may have a far different definition for the term "submissive" than you do.  If they are someone you are considering being involved with, it's usually a pretty good idea to discuss what the terms mean to them and are you on the same page when you're throwing around the same terms in a conversation.  Your idea of submissive might be closer to what they think of as a bottom, or a slave in their eyes.  It helps a conversation to know what the other person is talking about when they use a word.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Learning - 5/16/2011 1:30:24 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My disclaimer: If people wanna call themselves slaves, live that ideal in anyway they want, I am happy for them if they are happy!


Yeah I have come to not really care what people call themselves, either.  My passions lie in areas other than verbiage.  However, all DES did was point out a scenario we've all see on these boards a gazillion times. I don't see how that warranted calls of bullshit or being called stupid.


_____________________________

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