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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 11:56:29 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

My brother makes $28 plus killer benefits but he's been there for 20 years.


So that's $56,000.

We can't fairly count overtime. I make far more than my colleagues, but that's because of all the things I do beyond the basic job.

I do agree with the basic point that college is hardly the sole way to success.

But at the same time, on average, college graduates do have better income opportunities.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2011 11:57:46 AM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 11:56:34 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

We know popeye, people who do things like learn out of books are stupid time wasters.


Well gee Julia, it certainly turned out that way for me with my degree!
I should have joined the Fire Dept like my brother.

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 11:57:33 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I should have joined the Fire Dept like my brother.




I think you should have. People who do not use their education for its intended purpose and then blame the educational system for it probably never belonged there in the first place

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:01:49 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I don't know about college, except many of the graduates I have to deal with daily. I did not have the luxury of going to college. Nor, was there any specific field that interested me enough to really want to go.

What I do know is that K-12 needs to be harder. Based upon what I do know about that, is that too many schools have 'dumbed down' to the lowest denominator and I find that appalling.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/20/2011 12:02:13 PM >

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:04:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

What I do know is that K-12 needs to be harder. Based upon what I do know about that, is that too many schools have 'dumbed down' to the lowest denominator and I find that appalling.


I can tell you that many of the college freshmen I see are very poorly prepared.

No math skills, no history, no writing skills, poor reading ability, no research skills, and not even decent computer skills.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2011 12:05:24 PM >

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:09:39 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I do know is that K-12 needs to be harder. Based upon what I do know about that, is that too many schools have 'dumbed down' to the lowest denominator and I find that appalling.


I can tell you that many of the college freshmen I see are very poorly prepared.

No math skills, no history, no writing skills, poor reading ability, no research skills, and not even decent computer skills.




I haven't found out the numbers, but the years I spent in grad school at my last university I noticed that every fall the place would be packed for the first couple of weeks, and as the fall semester drew to a close, the less people there were. And the more we reached cut off dates, the less populated: Such as, last day to drop a class without it showing, the last day to withdraw without being assigned a letter grade, etc etc etc


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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:11:11 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Freshmen attrition rates of 50% are not uncommon.

In my classroom, I see the first drop when the first paper is due. I'd say around 20%.

And yes, the final exodus before the withdraw deadline--generally by students who haven't been in class.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2011 12:12:31 PM >

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:12:14 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I do know is that K-12 needs to be harder. Based upon what I do know about that, is that too many schools have 'dumbed down' to the lowest denominator and I find that appalling.


I can tell you that many of the college freshmen I see are very poorly prepared.

No math skills, no history, no writing skills, poor reading ability, no research skills, and not even decent computer skills.




And a sub-bullet under writing skills: nearly incomprehensible without spell check.

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:15:10 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Absolutely--and even with it. I kid you not...

defiant for definite (very common)
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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:39:50 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
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Status: offline 		I am not surprised at all. I know my writing, spelling, and sentence structure often sucks. But when I am constantly correcting those things for people with 4 year degrees, I have to wonder.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/20/2011 12:41:10 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:44:12 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

when I am constantly correcting those things for people with 4 year degrees, I have to wonder.


Exactly.

I have seniors in a professional writing program. I have to give them a crash course in reality, starting with how they'll be perceived. They're entirely capable, but they've been allowed to slide for several years, and they've many bad habits.

Don't even get me started on paragraphs and sentence style. I just remind myself--that's why they're in my classroom.

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:51:26 PM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		They were saying the same stuff in the mid 70's when I was in undergrad.

I watch my son bust ass to maintain his career path, maintain his G.P.A. and see what he accomplishes and his work load, and I no more believe it now than I did then. I do believe that you have many more people attending college that might be better off learning a good trade that will pay off quicker and is better suited to their abilities.
When I was in college, it was understood that not everyone was suited for a more formal education than today.

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:54:19 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		We also didn't have the self-esteem movement that started in the 70s....that the most important thing was to get a pat on the head, regardless of accomplishment. Tracking went the way of the dodo.

Raising people to the standard (or beyond), then praising, would be a far better approach.

It's also hard to do when class sizes soar, and when parents are often obstacles rather than allies.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2011 12:55:53 PM >

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 12:58:20 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Tracking went the way of the dodo.


Tracking isn't a very good way to educate.


When I was younger I had trouble learning to read... once I learned the fundamentals I could not put books down. By the time I was in 6th grade they had tracked me two years behind my actual reading level. My teacher noticed I was reading highly complex novels for fun and retested me, and then retested me again.... and all of the sudden I was put in the gifted readers program.

My son was a lot like me (wonder if it is genetic), except he overcame it even younger than I did, but thankfully, they quit tracking kids from year to year.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 1:06:28 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I had a similar experience.

But the current method isn't a very good way either.

Perhaps we need to refine how it was done?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 1:08:25 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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Status: offline 		Maybe, what would you propose?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 1:14:01 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I do know is that K-12 needs to be harder. Based upon what I do know about that, is that too many schools have 'dumbed down' to the lowest denominator and I find that appalling.


I can tell you that many of the college freshmen I see are very poorly prepared.

No math skills, no history, no writing skills, poor reading ability, no research skills, and not even decent computer skills.



What amazed me was the number of people with university degrees, Computer Science or equivalent, that didn't know how to write any code at all. We hired 5 or 6 entry level guys who simply couldn't do the job at all when hired. We had to implement our own test because simply assuming a CS degree was indication of basic skills was spectacularly wrong. One guy, just before he quit, told me his degree wasn't preparing him to write code but to design systems others would code. When I told him to get a job as a systems analyst or project manager he would need 5 to 10 years experience writing code he looked at me like I was insane.

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 1:14:59 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		More frequent assessment. Smaller class sizes. A mastery system with lots of support (to ensure mastery), vs. merely doing time.

That's gonna cost money. So funding. It's a worthwhile societal investment.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2011 1:27:01 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 1:16:52 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I hear ya, Ken.

I lecture all the time about the importance of mastering skills, not merely getting the sheepskin.

Imagine a classroom full of DBGs, all supporting each other's perspective. That's what we're up against.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2011 1:18:06 PM >

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RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? - 5/20/2011 1:25:31 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

More frequent assessment. Smaller class sizes. A master system with lots of support (to ensure mastery), vs. merely doing time.

That's gonna cost money. So funding. It's a worthwhile societal investment.




Agreed.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 60
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