If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame?

If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (Full Version)

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defiantbadgirl -> If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:01:50 PM)
Education critics say US colleges are much easier than colleges in some other countries. College professors complain that students don't spend enough time studying. Students that spend their college years partying every night are in the minority. Far more students spend their time working due to rising college tuition. What choice do they have? Since they can't file bankruptcy on their student loans and there is no guarantee of a good paying job to pay off those loans, many students are working more so they can borrow less. If working keeps students from studying, many will choose their job over their education. One of the biggest reasons for the high drop out rate in US colleges is financial worry. Now let's look at the colleges in other countries that are said to be superior to ours. Students can spend more time studying because they don't have to work. They don't have to worry about student loans they can't file bankruptcy on if they can't find good paying jobs. Their higher education system is entirely different from the system in the US, yet US students are constantly being compared to them and found lacking. Colleges professors in the US need to either make classes even easier and assign less homework so students can work more and still pass, or tuition rates need to be lowered. They can't have it both ways.

DarkSteven -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:10:56 PM)
Yes they can. It's a lot easier to have a good life with college than without. As long as that's true, colleges will see demand. And I'm not sure that foreign colleges' students are able to attend without worrying about finances. Could you provide a source for that?

juliaoceania -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:11:27 PM)
I would love to see colleges that were completely publicly funded. On the other hand, I was able to get my AA in three years working part time and had no debt. I also had a 4.0 gpa I was able to get my BA with 5k debt and I did not work at all. I graduated with a 3.96 GPA I am currently in Grad school, and I only have to finish my thesis to get my MA. I will graduate with about 50k of debt... I have not worked much (although I did work through my first year). I have a 4.0 gpa. Cost of living was the reason I took out student loans (living in Southern California was EXPENSIVE), and there were no grants for living expenses.... my tuition is paid for because of my scholarship. So, it is expensive to get an education, but you can do it without burying yourself, working limited hours, etc. It does take sacrifice, not everyone is willing to make that sacrifice... in some ways it feels good to have made sacrifices and overcome adversity and succeed anyways, if they took merit away as a criteria to do well, I wonder if that would add to laziness? In California you can get significant help to pay for college if you are a good student. It is how I received my BA with so little expense to myself.

Aylee -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:14:49 PM)
Or. . . we need to lower the number of students going to college. We also need to completely end the remedial classes. No more bonehead English or bonehead science or math. You should have learned these things in high school. Actually a lot of our problems with colleges stem from the k-12. And a great deal of that has to do with the ending of the Normal Teaching Schools. There really is no quick fix.

juliaoceania -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:16:18 PM)
quote: And I'm not sure that foreign colleges' students are able to attend without worrying about finances. Could you provide a source for that? In many European countries college is free. That does not mean all countries allow everyone to get into any school they would like, you still have to merit a great education. In Germany they have vocational tracks and academic tracks. You have to merit an academic track in your teen years to go that direction. One thing I like about the US, you can completely fuck off in high school, get your shit together as an adult, go back to school and earn good grades, and then move on from there if you merit it. I am an example of a high school fuck off who went a vastly different direction in my 20s. In some countries that would not be possible. I feel lucky it happened for me

defiantbadgirl -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:43:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Yes they can. It's a lot easier to have a good life with college than without. As long as that's true, colleges will see demand. And I'm not sure that foreign colleges' students are able to attend without worrying about finances. Could you provide a source for that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_education List of Countries with Free Post-Secondary Education This is not a complete list, and only countries discussed in the article are mentioned. Argentina Brazil China Denmark Finland Greece Norway Sri Lanka (limited)

pahunkboy -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 6:52:25 PM)
...the university system needs major reform. It is top heavy.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 7:20:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee We also need to completely end the remedial classes. No more bonehead English or bonehead science or math. You should have learned these things in high school. Actually a lot of our problems with colleges stem from the k-12. And a great deal of that has to do with the ending of the Normal Teaching Schools. There really is no quick fix. Some foreign exchange students need remedial english classes. Many older students need remedial math classes since math is a use it or lose it subject and most people only use basic math in everyday life. What do you mean by normal teaching schools?

juliaoceania -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 7:23:32 PM)
I have no issue with remedial classes, I just think they should be taught credit/no credit, and they shouldn't count toward a degree

willbeurdaddy -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 7:30:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Education critics say US colleges are much easier than colleges in some other countries. College professors complain that students don't spend enough time studying. Students that spend their college years partying every night are in the minority. Far more students spend their time working due to rising college tuition. What choice do they have? Since they can't file bankruptcy on their student loans and there is no guarantee of a good paying job to pay off those loans, many students are working more so they can borrow less. If working keeps students from studying, many will choose their job over their education. One of the biggest reasons for the high drop out rate in US colleges is financial worry. Now let's look at the colleges in other countries that are said to be superior to ours. Students can spend more time studying because they don't have to work. They don't have to worry about student loans they can't file bankruptcy on if they can't find good paying jobs. Their higher education system is entirely different from the system in the US, yet US students are constantly being compared to them and found lacking. Colleges professors in the US need to either make classes even easier and assign less homework so students can work more and still pass, or tuition rates need to be lowered. They can't have it both ways. Sorry, Im not buying that its the financial aspects. College freshmen are just not as well prepared because K-12 education is such a waste of time. State schools also have problems with legislated admission policies that guarantee spots based on non-academic or poorly designed academic criteria. And while "every night" may not be the norm, partying 4-5 nights a week and horrible sleep habits are endemic to college (or at least was until 2 years ago when my youngest graduated).

Musicmystery -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 7:31:16 PM)
quote: Colleges professors in the US need to either make classes even easier and assign less homework so students can work more and still pass, or tuition rates need to be lowered. They can't have it both ways. Several problems here. making courses even easier would risk losing accreditation if accreditation standards were lowered (out of the control of professors), college degrees would be worthless in the job market *college professors don't control tuition either Also, the U.S. educational system works differently than Europe does it. There, only students with aptitude head to appropriate higher educational channels, making standards much easier to maintain. In the U.S., more students than ever before attend college--so if the top 5% of students once attended, and now the top 50% attend, that's quite an impact. Remember--the goal isn't the paper, but the skills. It's not hard to get just the paper, but 45% of college graduates will get jobs no better than high school graduates, precisely for that reason. Employers care about the skills--and that includes the ability to handle multiple tasks and workloads. As for funding, talk to your legislative representatives.

outhere69 -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 7:31:17 PM)
I think the remedial classes should be kept at the community college level and not taught at a 4 year institution. Those who think American schools are easy must not've gone to engineering school!

Edwynn -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 8:16:36 PM)
Yes, 'easy' is certainly not the experience here. I get through the math (which is not any easier than it ever has been) pretty decently but there's a lot more to what I'm taking than just the math. One thing that has changed is the extra workload due to current technology. Where once professors were limited to physical hard copy handouts for extra-textbook study aids, extra course material, assignments, etc. and limited by time and budget thereby, now it is possible to seriously pile it on by way of sending students hither and yon over the internet to delve through multiple websites, the extra material on university systems such as uLearn, where one 12 page reading assignment follows a 54 page study which follows a 42 page report, etc. each with the requisite 4-8 page 'summary' to be handed in ... and the in-class hard copy handouts are still there. No restraint of killing half a forest that would otherwise be required for all that in the old days. What's even more 'fun' is all the different ways to do homework, turn in assignments, take-home tests, papers, etc. and trying to remember which method this paper or that assignment is required in what mode for which instructor. I enjoy going from one syllabus to the next, each saying in turn; "All papers are to be submitted through the uLearn assignment box only! Hard copy or student e-mail will not be accepted!"; next ... "Hard copy only! student e-mail not accepted!"; next ... "Student e-mail only! etc.!"; ... "uLearn e-mail only!" ... Except that it's rarely the same mode in actual practice for that instructor for everything. It varies from one assignment or paper to the next. I once tapped the wrong file for an attachment to a student e-mail in turning in a paper and my German professor got my six page 'summary' of a lengthy study of the question of why exchange rates and purchasing power parity do or do not correlate, over which time periods, etc. and this professor, the smarmiest, snarkiest, -and one of my favorite teachers ever-, said with his usual sarcastic 'I am so overjoyed!' smile, "Excellent! If you do this again I'm going to make you translate it!" PS He had actually printed out the first page so as to be able to wave it in front of me while having his fun.

Brain -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/17/2011 9:18:34 PM)
I may be wrong but I think in Norway they nationalized the oil industry and used the revenue to pay for social programs. That is why Norway has had the highest standard of living in the world and I believe getting an education, if it's not free it's very inexpensive compared to the United States and Canada. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: And I'm not sure that foreign colleges' students are able to attend without worrying about finances. Could you provide a source for that? In many European countries college is free. That does not mean all countries allow everyone to get into any school they would like, you still have to merit a great education. In Germany they have vocational tracks and academic tracks. You have to merit an academic track in your teen years to go that direction. One thing I like about the US, you can completely fuck off in high school, get your shit together as an adult, go back to school and earn good grades, and then move on from there if you merit it. I am an example of a high school fuck off who went a vastly different direction in my 20s. In some countries that would not be possible. I feel lucky it happened for me

hlen5 -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/18/2011 2:09:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Or. . . we need to lower the number of students going to college. We also need to completely end the remedial classes. No more bonehead English or bonehead science or math. You should have learned these things in high school.............. And a great deal of that has to do with the ending of the Normal Teaching Schools. There really is no quick fix. Normal Teaching Schools? When I got my AA, remedial classes were part of your GPA. Being remedial, you didn't start the college coursework til the remedial courses were done.

sunshinemiss -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/18/2011 3:07:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Education critics say US colleges are much easier than colleges in some other countries.... Can you please provide a link? Thank you. Professor Sunshine

DomKen -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/18/2011 3:44:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Education critics say US colleges are much easier than colleges in some other countries. College professors complain that students don't spend enough time studying. Students that spend their college years partying every night are in the minority. Far more students spend their time working due to rising college tuition. What choice do they have? Since they can't file bankruptcy on their student loans and there is no guarantee of a good paying job to pay off those loans, many students are working more so they can borrow less. If working keeps students from studying, many will choose their job over their education. One of the biggest reasons for the high drop out rate in US colleges is financial worry. Now let's look at the colleges in other countries that are said to be superior to ours. Students can spend more time studying because they don't have to work. They don't have to worry about student loans they can't file bankruptcy on if they can't find good paying jobs. Their higher education system is entirely different from the system in the US, yet US students are constantly being compared to them and found lacking. Colleges professors in the US need to either make classes even easier and assign less homework so students can work more and still pass, or tuition rates need to be lowered. They can't have it both ways. Most universities are way too easy. No remedial courses should be offered. If you didn't get properly prepared for college in high schol then go to a CC or something and learn what you should have learned to graduate high school. Eliminate the fluff classes and fluff degree programs (appreciation of art and that sort of nonsense). No one should be able to get a degree without at least a class in calculus and one in more than an intro science class.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/18/2011 5:20:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Most universities are way too easy. No remedial courses should be offered. If you didn't get properly prepared for college in high schol then go to a CC or something and learn what you should have learned to graduate high school. Eliminate the fluff classes and fluff degree programs (appreciation of art and that sort of nonsense). No one should be able to get a degree without at least a class in calculus and one in more than an intro science class. I don't see anything in your statement about substantially reducing tuition rates, colleges guaranteeing high paying jobs after graduation, or allowing graduates to file bankruptcy on their student loans if they can't pay them. Making college harder without doing any of that only gives the rich who don't have to work during college to avoid mortgage sized debt unfair advantage.

thishereboi -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/18/2011 6:07:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have no issue with remedial classes, I just think they should be taught credit/no credit, and they shouldn't count toward a degree I didn't think they counted toward the degree. I had to take basic bio before they let me take A & P and it didn't count for anything. I was just a prereq.

Aylee -> RE: If US colleges are too easy, who is to blame? (5/18/2011 6:34:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 Normal Teaching Schools? Teacher schools. Instead of a liberal arts degree in education. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_schools quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl What do you mean by normal teaching schools? I am refering to Normal Teaching Schools.

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