RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed?

RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 7:47:32 AM)
quote: On the contrary... in the end, the "State" would own none of it. You do not know what pure communism is, which isn't surprising to me

juliaoceania -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 7:49:05 AM)
quote: It's interesting that when welfare is discussed, the theme is not helping people but avoiding welfare dependency. I do not know if you read my post, but I thought that my ideas would indeed help people avoid welfare dependency by showing them it is possible to plan for the future, and have the skills to do so

Musicmystery -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 7:49:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So we are talking Welfare University? It does not sound like a resume builder to me I once did a consulting job that was essentially that. Four manufacturing companies were willing to provide jobs, and needed the labor, but they found the people they were hiring had no essential skills in terms of how to handle a job. [For example, if they didn't know what to do, they'd just leave...forever, not even picking up their check.] So I designed a four/six week training program in essential job skills, in partnership with a nearby college, to allow this particular subset of welfare folks to be able to perform and keep their new jobs.

TreasureKY -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 7:51:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: On the contrary... in the end, the "State" would own none of it. You do not know what pure communism is, which isn't surprising to me Still trying to read peoples' minds and judge them, eh? You have nothing more constructive to add than this?

juliaoceania -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 7:54:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So we are talking Welfare University? It does not sound like a resume builder to me I once did a consulting job that was essentially that. Four manufacturing companies were willing to provide jobs, and needed the labor, but they found the people they were hiring had no essential skills in terms of how to handle a job. [For example, if they didn't know what to do, they'd just leave...forever, not even picking up their check.] So I designed a four/six week training program in essential job skills, in partnership with a nearby college, to allow this particular subset of welfare folks to be able to perform and keep their new jobs. I do not know if they still have them, but there was a time when there were tax incentives to hire welfare recipients in an attempt to give them an advantage in the job market against other unskilled, low paying, minimum wage labor. The companies that took these vouchers were very happy to use them for tax credits. Unfortunately, the employees hired under such practices were often not put in jobs with any sort of advancement possibilities... in other words, less than entry level (entry level is a term that insinuates there are other levels).

DomKen -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 8:02:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Blah, that means there 650,000 people that should be starting there own companies together, so they can't be outsourced. The problem with this attitude of working for megacorps is they don't give a shit about you, nor should they really. People really need to work for themselves if possible, as that is the only means of any form of job security. There is no reason for 650,000 people that know computers inside and out to be unemployed at this time in history, it's absurd. As a former IT pro this is untrue. The simple problem is where to get the work these 650k pros would do. Big projects to employ thousands of coders are very rare. The commercial market place has established players in all niches and a startup is unlikely to wrest any market share away from SAP, for instance. Mid sized projects are done increasingly by the overseas outfits, at around $8/hr per coder. A US based company cannot compete on that perceived price point. This is the market where most of those 650k IT pros used to work. There simply aren't enough small projects, mostly simple websites, to keep any significant fraction of those people employed.

juliaoceania -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 8:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: On the contrary... in the end, the "State" would own none of it. You do not know what pure communism is, which isn't surprising to me Still trying to read peoples' minds and judge them, eh? You have nothing more constructive to add than this? The type of Communism that was supposed to be the end result of Marx's proposed revolution was different than what most people think. He theorized that after the government seized the means of production in a violent revolution that the people would start to run it for their own good.... think profit sharing. There are some very profitable companies that operate this way. Pure communism is a system that is small scale, where people use the skills they have to develop a community. In other words, each person works according to their skill set. marx actually came up with his ideas by looking at historical data concerning preindustrialist communities. He thought that a man was alienated from the fruits of his labors by large manufacturing schemes, and that the industrialists siphoned off the "surplus profits" through this process of alienation. He thought that people ceased to take pride in their work in a personal way... such as a craftsman would. He also thought that we would devalue such manufactured goods because there was little if any craftsmanship that went into it. In other words, if Joe makes you a pair of shoes, you are going to know Joe because he is your neighbor. You know how much work he put into them. You know his family. You know his needs. You also may admire his workmanship more because he put himself into his work, and this tends to show. contrast that with buying cheap goods from countries that many people cannot find on a map, by faceless people who do not even speak the same language. Totally different quality to that. I do not mind your ideas, I think I would like living in such a community where my neighbor helped me build my home, and I returned the favor by helping my neighbor build theirs. I am really into bartering, for example. I like things that are handcrafted, too.... but then again, that is just my political views showing again

Musicmystery -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 8:08:09 AM)
Everyone should be trained, high school and college, the basics of business--including me, a musician and writer. They should learn to see themselves as contractors supplying labor, with employers as clients. People would make much smarter decisions, and they'd find work for themselves even when there were no jobs. What needs doing, what are my skills, what do I want to do--match them up and start creating work. If there's really a need and you really have the skills and a sound plan to resolve it, the economic condition is irrelevant.

tj444 -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 10:29:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Imo, that would not happen, those people would need jobs and in some remote place, thousands of long term jobs would need to be created some how but that is not likely. There wouldnt be much of a future for kids that grow up there either, once they finished school they would move to a real city where they could get work or go to college so then the town eventually dies. So you have a brand new community where everyone is skilled (we know so because they had to apply and be accepted into the program), and everyone has demonstrated their willingness to work hard (they had to in order to stay in the program), and everyone has a vested interest in staying put and keeping their community alive (they all own land and homes there)... so you don't think that kind of employee base to draw from would attract any new businesses? quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Yeah, brilliant. Except most land like that is vacant for a reason. It's caliche, or clay, or all rock, and can't be farmed. It's not near any water. It's out in the middle of fucking nowhere. Not to mention the fact that even if such a project were viable, land that is held in trust for all of us will be given up to some developer who has political connections so he can make even more money. I'm not willing to trade my national birthright so some stupid cocksucker like Trump can come in and built another Levittown so he can buy another casino. Making the land into a livable community would be the payment required in order to receive your piece of it. People have been taming inhospitable land throughout history. Land wouldn't be given up to some developer... it would be given up, in small parcels, to the skilled people who would apply for the opportunity to live there and build a future for themselves off of government welfare. Isn't the land also the national birthright of those people, too? quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I thought her idea sounded a little bit like - gasp - communism..... On the contrary... in the end, the "State" would own none of it. quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt I don't think it will work, Treasure. Federal land is controlled by the BLM which, at least when I was in college, was known less than affectionately as the "Bureau of Livestock and Mining". Much if not most of the decent land is leased, and there's about no way the gov't is going to give up that revenue. Who does the government answer to? quote: tj444 Users viewing this topic: tj444 Nope, i dont think it would work at all. People migrate to large cities because that is where the most jobs are. Where I grew up was a dying town, there was a small hospital and a few businesses, a school. Now most of the few businesses that were there have shut down (this happened prior to this recession, btw) and a lot of people have moved to larger cities. That is the way things go. The US has lots of dying towns where people do have skills, education, etc but there is no one there to hire them.

barelynangel -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 4:24:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flcouple2009 No, your running issues together. He was not awarded the food stamps AFTER winning the lottery. He is spending what he was awarded previously. In most places one needs to qualify every 6 months. Any increase in pay or bank account would play into the new qualifying. Bought a car? It now has to be reported on the forms. Different states have different rules but none generally review benefits within the time frame they are awarded for. That said many states give you a financial threshold which if you go over you have to report and the benefits are recalculated. There can be penalties for failing to report. Actually i am going by what the article says, " Representatives of the Department of Human Services and members of the Legislature said they were moving quickly to revise rules that made it possible for Fick to keep collecting food stamps after he won $2 million in the lottery's televised "Make Me Rich" game in July. DHS officials confirmed that Fick had contacted them about his winnings and was notified that he could continue to receive aid because he had taken the winnings in a lump sum and still met the income threshold for food assistance." He won the money in July of last year -- well over 6 months ago. angel

mnottertail -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 4:43:50 PM)
And he was on NPR and the same facts came to light there, from his own mouth.

barelynangel -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 5:02:48 PM)
Which facts Ron, the one in the article? or what flcouple said? angel

outhere69 -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 6:52:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania The worst thing about the long term unemployed is their demographic... They are often men over the age of 50, which means they are not eligible for social security, a little old to be training for a new career, and are often the victim of age discrimination. MickyDs isn't going to hire these men. They are often over qualified for any sort of joe-job that they try for, and there is usually some young hungry person who they are going against to land these jobs. For many of these men, it means living off the savings they had for their retirement and selling off assets, leaving them with little for when they actually DO reach old age they will not be able to retire because they used it all up. Uhhhhh..............where exactly did you find all this fascinating information? I have heard it on news reports, places like Rachel Maddow....I am not going to post the stats of the city I am living in because it is not a very large one. You know, not every bit of information comes from the internet and has a link I've seen similar stats from the hi tech industries - turning 50 starts a big old worrisome time in your career. Even if you did continuing ed to keep current, you're considered more expensive than a "fresh-out" techie. And at that time, good luck getting fuck-all for insurance; even COBRA is prohibitively expensive in that age range.

Marini -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 10:17:39 PM)
Many people feel that employment is not a "right", which is interesting. Many people don't feel we need new government programs to assist the long term unemployed, which is also enteresting. We live in a terrrible economic climate, especially for those seeking employment. As if this is not bad enough, we have to fight to make sure programs like medicare and medicaid are not CUT. I still feel we are our brothers keeper, whether we want to be or not. If we can't or won't help those that are "falling down", we all will be effected in the end, one way or another. I have enjoyed reading all the responses. If you are interested in the "plight" of the long term unemployed, I found a fascinating website where the unemployed share their stories {in their own words}: Union of Unemployed / stories from the heart

Edwynn -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 10:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Why not kill two birds with one stone? There is a vast amount of decent Federally owned land out there... why not offer unemployed volunteers an opportunity to earn "40 acres and a mule" by banding together with other skilled and willing-to-work people to create entirely new communities for people to live? For example, in exchange for 40 hours a week of your professional services, you can earn a set amount of land with a new home... complete with a 10 year moratorium on personal and property tax... and credit that can be used to purchase needed items such as food, if you volunteer to use your skills to band with others in building homes and infrastructure on Federal land set aside for new communities. It would take some planning, and people would have to agree to the hardships while the infrastructure was built. The land would be donated by the Federal government. It would take money for materials, but I suspect it would be less that what is doled out in cold, hard cash for unemployment. The money spent on materials might also stimulate other areas of the economy. People would have to volunteer and apply for the program, of course. They might have to prove that they have needed skills to contribute... it wouldn't work if everyone had landscaping skills and no one knew how to do electrical wiring. Eh... might work, might not. But it seems a damn sight better idea than sitting around talking about how to make companies hire more people, or how to afford more people living on unemployment payments. Not a bad idea, even if not fully fleshed out. I have read beyond Treasure's initial post, and to all here who instantly pooh pooh the idea, be aware that something along the lines being proposed here have already been in play, the most recent incarnations going on for three generations now. It's called an "intentional community," and there are a great variety of them in existence, even if not a large number of them overall. There are many different frameworks upon which Treasure's proposal could be implemented. Some of these communities are more completely 'communal,' all work and non-personal possessions held in common. After that there are numerous mix-and-match schemes of private/common aspects of the community which can stretch all the way to being essentially a 'legally gated' community, some bit of employment within the community with most working the usual jobs outside of it. In these 'intentional small neighborhoods' the community owns all the land and legally all the houses to begin with. People can buy a house (which they and others have built) for a combination of money and other communal work. Being not-for-profit, the prices are affordable with much lower income. If someone moves, the house can only be sold back to the community, not to an outsider. The community approves the subsequent sale to an existing or new member. But that is just one way, and there are numerous variations on several themes. Who knows, a couple of CNC machines to make highly specialized or custom ordered parts, a small remodeling business, a financial planning business, a web design business, community maintenance and common garden, next thing you know everybody's busy, costs are low, and the few business might sustain people quite readily. Contrary to some of the unthinking assumptions here, not every last acre of federal land is more than 500 miles away from the closest two-horse town, and with the internet much more opportunity exists for small service businesses from remote locations. Aside from the fact that more than a few might prefer some distance from the noise anyway. Also, if government funds are involved at all, perhaps a matching fund from the government could pay for half of a parcel that a group had saved up to purchase from some of these large tracts of privately owned land, with a limit, of course. Here is the only intentional community association I can recall for the moment, but there are others: http://www.ic.org/

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 10:48:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Many people feel that employment is not a "right", which is interesting. that anyone thinks it is a right is mindboggling Many people don't feel we need new government programs to assist the long term unemployed, which is also enteresting. why is it interesting? We live in a terrrible economic climate, especially for those seeking employment. ldo As if this is not bad enough, we have to fight to make sure programs like medicare and medicaid are not CUT. you better fight to make sure they survive at all before you worry about whether there are cuts I still feel we are our brothers keeper, whether we want to be or not. whether we want to be or not, and whether we can afford to be or not...the liberal mantra If we can't or won't help those that are "falling down", we all will be effected in the end, one way or another. if our help keeps them down we will be affected even more onerously. I have enjoyed reading all the responses. If you are interested in the "plight" of the long term unemployed, here are a few interesting articles: Long term unemployed face stigma's in job search Long Term Unemployed

juliaoceania -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 10:49:09 PM)
These communities have met with varying levels of success....

Edwynn -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/19/2011 11:00:06 PM)
As with virtually anything in life.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/20/2011 2:05:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So we are talking Welfare University? It does not sound like a resume builder to me I once did a consulting job that was essentially that. Four manufacturing companies were willing to provide jobs, and needed the labor, but they found the people they were hiring had no essential skills in terms of how to handle a job. [For example, if they didn't know what to do, they'd just leave...forever, not even picking up their check.] So I designed a four/six week training program in essential job skills, in partnership with a nearby college, to allow this particular subset of welfare folks to be able to perform and keep their new jobs. I do not know if they still have them, but there was a time when there were tax incentives to hire welfare recipients in an attempt to give them an advantage in the job market against other unskilled, low paying, minimum wage labor. The companies that took these vouchers were very happy to use them for tax credits. Unfortunately, the employees hired under such practices were often not put in jobs with any sort of advancement possibilities... in other words, less than entry level (entry level is a term that insinuates there are other levels). quote: _____________________________ Careful now, people might think youre a conservative, since Welfare to Work Vouchers (which still exist) were part of a bill designed and pushed through Clinton by Newt Gingrich and was a key element of the Contract With America. WTW is admiinistered on a state by state basis, and different states have different levels of success at getting welfare recipients hired. Once they are hired the benefits are temporary, and, like any other job, advancement depends on the skills and work record of the employee. Do you honestly expect that former welfare recipients would be high on the promotion list?

juliaoceania -> RE: Is "employment" a right? What should be done to help the long term unemployed? (5/20/2011 6:26:37 AM)
Did you read my post? I only said these vouchers were successful in getting corporations tax cuts.... that to you is possibly the only thing that matters. The plight of women raising 3 kids on minimum wage with no chance for advancement escapes you. The fact that those employers lose their credit in a year, and then often fired the employee to replace them with someone that has another credit, this probably escapes you, too. Going up for a job against someone who has such a voucher, when you do not, escapes you too.

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