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Organic brain - 5/21/2011 12:16:35 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		It's been under development for thousands of years. It can do things no computer can do. Is it ultimately possible to recreate every neural pathway, and the way the data is processed will eventually be cracked. But really, could you imagine a computer that can meld together and interrelate data fron ancestors encoded into their very being ? To actually assimilate the data and just process it ? Even able to cross reference everything, like a human does.

Will it be able to grow ? Did it grow ? A human brain grew, but so did alot of other things. I thgink what sets us apart from animals is that we give thought to something more than survival. So therefore a small part of us has risen above our existence. When we truly become aware of that fact, we become attracted to that.

Where are people say, on a scale of one to five ? A six buck solar calculator can outdo the best of the human calculators. You know what I mean, 198X12. OK that's 198X2, 396+1980. Six, seven, three, two. 2,376. Some may never believe, but I did just work that out in my head as I typed. There is an alternate way, which would be to consider the 1,980 to be 2,000 minus 20. Now id the 1,980 factor was 1,800, I would have done it that way. The numbers tell.

BUT even that can be programmed into a computer.; They are already working on it. Look at Watson, the greenheaded stepchild of IBM. That is a noteworthy achievement to be sure, but is it truly intelligence ?

Yes. It has the ability, with the proper programming to adapt, and possibly even grow. So it is intelligent. Self aware ? Fuck all that, it;s not the issue. The issue is whether a computer created by Man can ever equal Man. If you thuink so, then in the greater sphere, the universe is nothing but an extremely complex fractal. But what most don't realize is that the fractal you see is just a visual representation of a mathematical formula.

Now I ask this  : Can any machine develop beyond it's limits ? Can an old 486 build itself up to be a quad core ? Can it even put RAM in itself ? Seems to me we can, or at least could. If not we would be some kind of tadpolish creature trying to crawl out of the water somewhere. Why did that even happen anyway ? Was the wter too hot or something ?

But anyway, if you think that eventually Man wil be able to recreate (not clone) himself, because that self is not in a corporeal sense,,,,,,,, then that implies that with sufficient knowledge you are then a God. And what if you create something greater than yourself ? This Godhood shit might not be all it's cracked up to be.





On purpose I am not proofing or editing this. I do have some weird typos sometimes but will advise. In a way I am critiquing myself.

T^T
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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 2:34:40 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Geezis FFFFFFFFF, 23,760.

OK call me an idiot.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 2:50:38 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

A six buck solar calculator can outdo the best of the human calculators.



Uhm no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtotrboSUqQ

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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 2:53:13 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGNAL: Termyn8or
Yes. It has the ability, with the proper programming to adapt, and possibly even grow. So it is intelligent. Self aware ? Fuck all that, it;s not the issue. The issue is whether a computer created by Man can ever equal Man. If you thuink so, then in the greater sphere, the universe is nothing but an extremely complex fractal. But what most don't realize is that the fractal you see is just a visual representation of a mathematical formula.


What feat does a machine have to do, in your mind, to fufill the answer to your 'question' (I bold it, for your reference)? No, really, that's a serious question. Raise the dead? Teleport between here and the Star War's 'galaxy'? Are you not happy with the capablity of the sort of machines in operation in millions of applications already?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Can any machine develop beyond it's limits ?


If it can do that, then is it limited? The whole point of the word 'limit' it to imply an 'upper stopping point of some kind'. Humans were limited to only a small portion of the planet for a long time; then we invented boats. Humans were limited by horse and ship, so we invented the locomotive engine. Humans yearn to fly for many thousands of years: So we invented the ability to fly. And then man wanted to reach for the stars; and we created space flight. So, man, could be considered a machine. And if so, is he limited? A modern computer needs several other little 'machines' to run the new release of games fresh on the market.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
But anyway, if you think that eventually Man wil be able to recreate (not clone) himself, because that self is not in a corporeal sense,,,,,,,, then that implies that with sufficient knowledge you are then a God. And what if you create something greater than yourself ? This Godhood shit might not be all it's cracked up to be.


With great power, comes an even greater responbility for that power. Funny how we forget just how powerful we are over the rest of the animal kingdom sometimes. We lord over them, and sometimes simply forget that they too, share Spaceship Earth with us. Do we have to look a thousand years into the future, just to to bask in our glory of power, wealth, and strength? Or....could we do that today?

Could man recreate himself (not clone, as you put it)? Yes, its called 'birth'. But your implying not of the 'old fashion' method, but a new method: Instant Human (just add water...). Who knows. If we could, should we? If we do, is there a limit? If no limit, what possible bad could arise from it? If nothing bad could arise, why didn't we do it....before now (when now is then)? Funny that sci-fi movies answer many of these questions in such wide dimensions and depth.

Play God? We play God right now, and do it without even thinking about it. People play Civ 5. Yes, we state those people, are not real....but what if they ARE real, in THEIR existance? We are controlling whole countries, and destroying whole cultures and histories....with just a few clicks of a button. There have been movies devoted to this concept (usually its revealed at the tail end of the movie too). Heck, we debate the level of suffering people will/may endure with our health care discussion threads (yes...threads....plural). We don't think about the direct care involvement of someone going through cancer or any of the millions of equally horrible threats to us humans; some just want to save a buck. Yes, we play God right now, something we have wanted (as a race) for thousands of years. How good of a job are we doing?

And if you answer that question, with something you had not thought out before....are you.....a (biological) machine....limited?

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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 3:18:04 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

T ^ T
The issue is whether a computer created by Man can ever equal Man.


Didn't Turing devise a mathematical proof of the impossibility of this?

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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 10:09:20 AM   
bighappygoth39


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Status: offline 		Not really, he just defined a test to see if a computer could impersonate a person in conversation. In fact, there's been quite a few cases of computers passing a Turing test (just as there's a few single issue obsessives cluttering up the P&R forum who quite possibly couldn't).
In which case, is a computer that can come out with a load of random noise about Star Trek on a nerd forum (its favourite episode is Spock's Brain, obviously) better at equaling man than a troll who keeps derailing conversations bey cutting and pasting huge blocks of text from elsewhere on the internet into debates that they have nothing to do with?


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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 10:20:58 AM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		I think the issue is: if we do, will it need us anymore?

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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 10:24:41 AM   
bighappygoth39


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Status: offline 		I think that's a Brian Aldiss short story from the '50s, not an issue.


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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 10:40:15 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		While your thoughts and post of an "Organic Brain" don't exactly depict the same thought process, as I read it, I was eerily reminded of the old Dean Koontz horror called Midnight.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/21/2011 11:33:18 AM   
Fellow


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Status: offline 		Not knowing much about the topic, I would ask if there is really genuine AI ever created? If so, can anybody give a concrete example.  It seems to me the computers are rather extension or aid of human brain function like a shovel helping the hand. Without actually knowing how brain works (in terms of physical mechanism), thinking of the brain as an advanced portable computer could be premature. Isn't it so that even if computers "make a decision", they actually follow the program parameters? Is there any indication computers can in principle think?

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RE: Organic brain - 5/22/2011 2:33:48 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
Not knowing much about the topic, I would ask if there is really genuine AI ever created?

No, there isn't as yet, and may never be. Of course, it's a given that it's a lot easier to fake something like that, than to actually do it.

quote:

It seems to me the computers are rather extension or aid of human brain function like a shovel helping the hand. Without actually knowing how brain works (in terms of physical mechanism), thinking of the brain as an advanced portable computer could be premature.

Not so much "premature" as 'wrong". Computers and brains aren't even remotely similar, even when you start getting into the huge expensive things. It's a very popular misconception, but it's utter bullshit.

quote:

Isn't it so that even if computers "make a decision", they actually follow the program parameters? Is there any indication computers can in principle think?

Can you be sure that isn't what happens whenever you make a decision, though? That's an interesting philosophical question which has never been resolved, and never will be until it can demonstrated that we have free will. There's just as much evidence for the deterministic model, and that isn't just a matter of philosophy: the notion that psychology can be reduced purely to an analysis of brain chemistry makes a pretty good case for determinism, after all.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/22/2011 2:49:02 PM   
FirmhandKY


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How long before someone mentions The Singularity?

Firm


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RE: Organic brain - 5/22/2011 3:01:26 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I think that one's more likely to turn up in the Turing thread if it manages to make its way off vaccines and back on topic.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/22/2011 6:25:20 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That's an interesting philosophical question which has never been resolved, and never will be until it can demonstrated that we have free will. There's just as much evidence for the deterministic model, and that isn't just a matter of philosophy: the notion that psychology can be reduced purely to an analysis of brain chemistry makes a pretty good case for determinism, after all.

It does? What evidence? Yes, you can deterministically explain every detail of how my arm raises, from the contracting of my muscles right back up the chain through the electrochemical processes that communicated the appropriate signals, and on back to the neurons in my brain that fired at the start of the process. But what caused this process to occur? What caused those first neurons to fire? Well hey, I decided to raise my fucking arm. Go fish. Physical determinism back-tracks the explanation as far as it can go, and then stops -- before the job is done -- buffing its fingernails on its shirtfront as if nobody will notice. I don't think so.

K.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/22/2011 7:15:55 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		At the core of this is a far more interesting discussion than determinism or its many limitations. As you point out, it is the very question: What is a human being?

Personally, I don't believe that the analysis of brain function/chemistry is going to throw an awful lot of light on that question at all.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/23/2011 3:22:33 AM   
Termyn8or


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Hmmm.

We've had scientific advancement. Up until recently of course, it seems that the new generation gets smarter than the old generation. How is that possible ? To learn something that was not known before. Certainly nobody can teach something that is not known.

Computers do alot of designing now, but do they invent ? Even to go so far as to say that computers can, or eventually will be able to do everything humans can do, almost, can they program themselves ? Of course a program is modified when installed in different copmputers, but that's in the program. I don't believe that hardware/software interaction qualifies as life, or even true intelligence.

Ha, I should've named this thread "Organic computer versus silicon brain".

This idea has been toyed with in scifi quite a bit. From the M5 in Star Trek TOS, The Terminator movies, bunches of Outer Limits and Twilight Zone.

And reality, things are more advanced than most realize. They have a transistor that consists of only one molecule. Even so, computer speed is experiencing diminished returns quite simply because they just can't pump electrons through a conductor much faster. They are appoaching 4Ghz, how far does even light travel in a vacuum during one fourbillionth of a second ? Not very far. (I think it's 0.000558 inches, but I'm too lazy to double check) So I don't think you're going to see a seven Ghz processor anytime soon. So there's dual core, quad core, what's next octocore ?

Even breaking down the speed limitaions, will it ever get done ? A mathematician can postulate that it is impossible. Perhaps it is and the question is more will it ever become possible ? At one time it was impossible to blow up whole cities with a few pounds of metal. Japan found out the hard way.

T^T


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RE: Organic brain - 5/23/2011 4:58:49 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
It does? What evidence?

Okay then: what evidence do you have to the contrary? You can prove that lifting your arm has nothing to do with social conditioning or any other factors you don't control, then?

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RE: Organic brain - 5/23/2011 11:05:42 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
It does? What evidence?

Okay then: what evidence do you have to the contrary? You can prove that lifting your arm has nothing to do with social conditioning or any other factors you don't control, then?

Excuse me, but you're the one making the claim that there's a good case for determinism.

But okay, think about it. Fuck, you can't even predict what thoughts are going to pop into your head in the next hour. To do so you'd have to be able to hold in mind your entire complement of predispositions, your entire history of experiences, and, too, be able to predict what events will occur in your enviroment during that hour. And every one of those events would depend on another chain of events, all of which you'd have to know in order to predict its occurance. Carried to its logical conclusion, you'd have to know the moment to moment state of everything in the entire universe from the beginning of time. And even then, events occuring at the quantum level would still introduce an insurmountable uncertainty with regard to what, precisely, might pop into your head in the next hour.

I mean, come on. Seriously.

K.

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RE: Organic brain - 5/23/2011 11:27:43 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		That doesn't hold water, though. You're assuming that you're unpredictable, rather than merely unable to predict your own behaviour. Those are two very different things, aren't they?

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RE: Organic brain - 5/23/2011 12:15:09 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You're assuming that you're unpredictable, rather than merely unable to predict your own behaviour.

Well no, I don't think I'm just assuming that. Granted, the fact that it is impossible to fulfill the conditions necessary to make the prediction, even if determinism is true, fails to establish unpredictability in principle. But even if we could fulfill the conditions, "events occuring at the quantum level would still introduce an insurmountable uncertainty with regard to what, precisely, might pop into your head in the next hour." And that uncertainty isn't an "assumption."

K.

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