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RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 8:59:32 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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For me there was never any effort to "become more honest". Carol and I were vanilla and had one belief system. Then that changed and we worked into a new belief system. It was a journey of mutual discovery not one of introspective honesty. That being said, two of the major hurdles for me were:

Q: By what right do I boss my wife around?
A: Because I can. That answer gave me the "right", but it didn't necessarily make it a good thing. So the follow on answer came from some introspection. I lead people at work and I generally think of that as a good thing. Why would I think of leading in my marriage as a bad thing?"

Q: What sort of "good" person wants to own their mate?
A: Again, some introspection made me question why I believed owning Carol was bad. The answer was that there was no reason. Ownership, in and of itself, just like authority is neither good or bad... it just is. It's a good thing to own Carol because it's good for us. What I may or may not do with some theoretical other partner would, I presume, be whatever was good for that relationship.

There were other hurdles too, but the answer was pretty much the same. I looked hard at the problem and challenged the assumptions which were leading to the dissonance. Any assumptions which didn't hold up under scrutiny were jettisoned. I'm a pretty disciplined thinker in that sense... emotions frequently follow intellect in me (although not always). In the cases where that's not true, then it's been Carol who has led me through my own morass of crap.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 5/25/2011 9:11:33 AM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 21

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:08:18 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

Hey Sunny, great question. I am sorry you still have those psychic wounds from childhood. Your sister is not nice!!

Anyway, I have never had to reconcile any disconnect between my real life persona with my being submissive. Perhaps for me, since I am not wired as a service oriented sub and my being submissive is intricately woven into my sexuality, there never had to be an analysis of why I am a strong, assertive woman in my life, yet love being taken down by a strong man who understands my need of it.

Being a strong woman and not particularly service oriented, however, has no bearing on how giving I am in a mutually caring relationship. In fact, I do things for a partner because I want to, not because it is part of the submissive DNA, as most define it.

My relationships have always been love relationships first, with the BDSM as the way we expressed ourselves sexually.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 22

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:14:02 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

What I dont get about this thread is the struggle some of you have had to basically be yourself. As if your not being true to who you want to be. leaderships question what right do I have to boss my wife around. He struggled with. From my perspective that questions would never come up. Cuz Im the boss its just that simple.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 23

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:23:54 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

I entered kink sort of through the back door. I had always been an asshole control freak and so took to D/s like a dysfunctional duck to water. It took me many years, finding the right partner and then the right therapist to work through a lot of that dysfunction to stop being an asshole control freak and start becoming a healthy dominant. Anger issues, insecurity, all those things were stuff I have had to work on to varying degrees of success.

As for kink, I was a pretty fluffy dom for years till I met her. I will never forget the first time I got a hardon hearing her in pain. I sort of freaked out. But again, right partner, right time and viola, I crossed to the dark side. However, I am still slow to push in that direction. I have yet to do a really long zipper around someone's breasts and down through her cunt and yet I like the idea, I really like the idea. I will get there in my own sweet time.

I no longer give a fuck about what society or others in the scene think, but my own internal voice is the only one I listen to now.

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 24

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:28:18 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

What I dont get about this thread is the struggle some of you have had to basically be yourself. As if your not being true to who you want to be. leaderships question what right do I have to boss my wife around. He struggled with. From my perspective that questions would never come up. Cuz Im the boss its just that simple.

BadOne

Why people struggle to be themselves is not an easy question to answer. Often they are products of a childhood that pushes them to conform to strict guidelines, and punishes them harshly (psychological punishment can be more hurtful than physical, look at Sunny's example of what was said to her years ago) for acting out.

The person's individual nature comes into play as well, some people are just more naturally self accepting than others. Just are some are more apt to be self reflective and to seek insight into what makes them tick.

I know I also had some issues in accepting my sadistic side, and spent years analyzing why. I finally came to a profound understanding of myself: Sometimes I enjoy being sadistic, because I enjoy being sadistic. Not everything about the human psyche can be analyzed. I've come to a point in my life where acceptance is essential, understanding, less so.

_____________________________

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 25

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:30:18 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

What I dont get about this thread is the struggle some of you have had to basically be yourself. As if your not being true to who you want to be. leaderships question what right do I have to boss my wife around. He struggled with. From my perspective that questions would never come up. Cuz Im the boss its just that simple.

BadOne

While I agree with you and applaud your self awareness, and I never struggled either, I do think it is far better for some of these questions to be asked than never addressed.

After all, how many people do we know who wished they could do something and never had the courage to express it or it question it?

It is like when men who have been married for years to a vanilla wife and they always KNEW they wanted to be dominant but never asked. I shake my head and think that is said that they were afraid to question themselves and their wives.

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 26

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:30:30 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Oye...my favourite Sunny one!

I think I've had a crash course journey over the last 10ish years. And it isn't even close to being over. I am no expert on being me.....yet.

I had a dual mindset in a way. I grew up in a very screwy household that was, off and on, very religious and always quite sheltered. Due to a difficult time in late elementary school, kids, girls especially can be VERY cruel, I was the quiet kid in school that many probably didn't even know was a school mate. (Sunny, your mention of your sister reminded me so much of those girls that were so horrid, and the lasting scars it gave me) I learned to fly under the radar to make my life a lot easier. Not much assertiveness or self love in that mess.

On the flip side, the media was all about feminism. I saw Gloria Steinem and others, fighting for women's rights and talking about how oppressed women were. The evils of the male dominated society. And then on another channel you would have Anita Bryant postulating about old fashioned family values.

I would go to church and hear the old song and dance about a woman being the man's help mate.....obey and all that rot. Then at home I saw an example of neither leading or even being able to lead.....all I saw was a clusterfuck.

With all of that, outside my home, I saw awesome examples of amazing strong women. Women I looked up to. Women that didn't jump up and down, screaming for any rights, but women that got those rights by being themselves.

Becoming dominant, able to lead a relationship........that came with maturity. Feeling that I could actually be IN a power exchange relationship morally, that took an adjustment. In my mind, relationships had parameters of equality. Equal effort, equal responsibility, and, if everyone did what they should, equal power. Equal power was supposed to be the goal! And that was a motherfucker of a struggle for me. The core of who I am, my very nature, hated it. I fought it constantly.

Over time, I've come to realize something very subtle but vital. Being a leader, having the power in a relationship of any sort, does not happen just because you want it, demand it or BELIEVE you deserve it. It happens by earning it. By having the qualities that cause people to defer/submit. Rather than focus on grabbing that control, I've learned to focus on being the person people want to hand the control over to.

The actual BDSM...in some ways that has come easier. A few conversations with people that enjoy the flip side of any given activity gave me that 'Ah haaaa......how cool is that!!!' moment.

The really difficult part for me, is that I tend to, in the words of my maternal grandmother, get a little too big for my britches. I don't have a fool proof shut off switch. It is as though, once I found my footing and gave myself permission to be myself, I get a little too much......me. I am too often bossy, or sadistic, with those that haven't really 'given consent'. It is one of my worst flaws, in my opinion.

I am lucky to have people that love me enough to help me see when I need to look in the mirror.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/25/2011 9:34:16 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 27

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:33:22 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

LaT: I am no expert on being me.....yet.

One of the reasons I love your posts. Very cool.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 28

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 9:51:23 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Add another vote for accepting sadism.

What Kana said actually made a lot of sense to Me. We get raised with the idea that you don't hurt other people on purpose. I wasn't one of those folks who always had the desire to do so. That wasn't until My mid-thirties. I probably had it easier because I already had exposure to other people who enjoyed engaging in S/m, even though I didn't previously want to engage in it Myself.

I think it takes a bit of accepting the concept of masochism to give you the freedom of accepting sadism. There is that inner thing you get going of you want to do these things, but from a social perspective, you've had it ingrained in you that these things are not acceptable. It's the other side of things that helps you unlearn what you've been taught. Not only does someone want you to do those things to them, they actually crave it. Something about that helps to bring down the barrier.

It wasn't necessarily a magical thing. I still had to grow into sadism. By that, I mean that I didn't just understand one day how masochists feel about it and the next day I was going balls to the wall. I walked before I ran. I'm a 'trust yet verify' person with darn near everything else and this wasn't any different. Some people would probably have been able to put Me in the fluffy sadist category for a while. Little bits at a time and seeing that it really was ok. Process that and then next time doing a bit more. I don't think I could have jumped in to the depth of sadism that I have today from the word go. I think I would have struggled with it a lot more if I would have tried.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 29

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 10:22:12 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

What I dont get about this thread is the struggle some of you have had to basically be yourself. As if your not being true to who you want to be. leaderships question what right do I have to boss my wife around. He struggled with. From my perspective that questions would never come up. Cuz Im the boss its just that simple.

BadOne

Why people struggle to be themselves is not an easy question to answer. Often they are products of a childhood that pushes them to conform to strict guidelines, and punishes them harshly (psychological punishment can be more hurtful than physical, look at Sunny's example of what was said to her years ago) for acting out.

The person's individual nature comes into play as well, some people are just more naturally self accepting than others. Just are some are more apt to be self reflective and to seek insight into what makes them tick.

I know I also had some issues in accepting my sadistic side, and spent years analyzing why. I finally came to a profound understanding of myself: Sometimes I enjoy being sadistic, because I enjoy being sadistic. Not everything about the human psyche can be analyzed. I've come to a point in my life where acceptance is essential, understanding, less so.

At times a partner will attempt to delve into my Psyche and ask why I like smacking em around. Cuz i enjoi it and that's as deep as it goes. To my way of thinking it make a hellava lot more sense then grown men yelling at a tv screen while watching sports. Which is another thing Ill never understand...

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 30

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 10:49:54 AM

OwnedFemaleFlesh

Posts: 182
Joined: 4/9/2011
Status: offline

The only sort of conflict I ever had was that, in my very early days of being a submissive, I always wanted to pretend to be the 'victim', I couldn't admit that I really liked this, that I was that disgusting or freaky. I could admit it to myself, but saying out loud to others was just too embarrassing for me. I was convinced that men only liked good girls, that they wouldn't like me if I was too dirty. And then one day, about 2 months in, I had a total epiphany where I realised that I could be as disgusting, perverted, freaky, dirty as I wanted and *men would love it*. I remember telling my then Dom all these disgusting things, trying to shock him, and of course he was pretty much unshockable, and he loved this filthy, dirty little slut I had suddenly morphed into. And then we had naked sex in a public place where I was throwing all my clothes off and running around, and he had to chase me and wrestle me back into my clothes before we got arrested. I guess I enjoyed my new found freedom a little too much, lol.

owned xxx

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 31

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 11:08:06 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

I don't know that I have an easy answer for you SB. I know that I was always in charge of the marriage. I know neither of us verbalized that or even really had it in our heads conceptually. It just was. However, lifting it out into the open brought the reality into conflict with my existing worldview.

In general, i can say that as I've gone through my life there have been lots and lots of situations where my existing worldview proved to be inadequate to whatever new situation I found myself in. So then I make updates.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 32

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 11:26:27 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I don't know that I have an easy answer for you SB. I know that I was always in charge of the marriage. I know neither of us verbalized that or even really had it in our heads conceptually. It just was. However, lifting it out into the open brought the reality into conflict with my existing worldview.

In general, i can say that as I've gone through my life there have been lots and lots of situations where my existing worldview proved to be inadequate to whatever new situation I found myself in. So then I make updates.

I was looking for some insight so I could better understand the struggles that you and others have. Thanks for the follow up post.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 33

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 11:27:31 AM

heartcream

Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

What I dont get about this thread is the struggle some of you have had to basically be yourself. As if your not being true to who you want to be. leaderships question what right do I have to boss my wife around. He struggled with. From my perspective that questions would never come up. Cuz Im the boss its just that simple.

BadOne

I dont get how you dont get people's struggles or how difficult it can be to be "true to who you want to be". Your glibness I dont get. You are the boss you say but to me, uh no, you are not.

I am menstruating hence blood bath.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 34

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 12:01:23 PM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OwnedFemaleFlesh

And then we had naked sex in a public place where I was throwing all my clothes off and running around

supermarket?
bookstore?

(in reply to OwnedFemaleFlesh)

Post #: 35

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 12:20:44 PM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I was looking for some insight so I could better understand the struggles that you and others have. Thanks for the follow up post.

BadOne

My Husband is always in charge, but at the same time it is always quite equal too
for me the struggle was not so much being myself, but rather changing my ways to find a way to please/seduce/manipulate/play my Husband

forinstance it would have never occurred to me to beg anybody for anything ever, it is not really in my character...
if i want something i just ask and when i don't get it... i might then demand it if i strongly feel that i should have it
... or, more likely, i will decide that i didn't want it anyway... and i am pretty hard, am ok to go without, won't be bothered...

so (i'm a very slow learner) i have finally discovered that my Husband quite enjoys being begged for favours...
and i have found a way to go about it so He feels inclined to give me what i want... what a relief!

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 36

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 4:17:41 PM

lovelyesme

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/26/2011
Status: offline

Great thread.
I had to be strong and tough to survive. Would I have been that way otherwise? Who knows? I was. I am. But put an alpha tougher than me in front of me-not an easy thing to do,mind you-and i swoon. Yes. Swoon.
Dissonance? Tons of it. Worked through by reading, writing, listening, talking (Including to all of you). Submitting-how I hated the word- is all tied up with sexuality for me, so the orgasms were very motivating. All good for now but future growth is inevitable....

(in reply to heartcream)

Post #: 37

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 5:29:40 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not act submissively with everyone. I do not even know what that means, to be honest. ... For me, submission is about my partner directing the relationship, complying with their authority when they believe it is necessary to exert it.

One of the things about time difference is that I will go to bed, and then come back and a number of posts have been made and I must take the time to read them before getting back to folks - and then a lot of times my questions are answered. I love that!

Julia -
the above looks like dissonance to me. You don't act submissively but you do act submissively. I find it confusing to think that there was no "push me-pull you" involved. It could be, but these are two opposing viewpoints. Would you mind speaking a bit more about this? I have some ideas in my head (mostly about love, caring and such) but I don't want to put words into your mouth (or onto your screen as it were).

best,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 38

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 6:17:33 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I think of submissiveness as a relational thing. I do not "feel" submissive in my day to day life. There is no one in my real life that I can even imagine being submissive to. I do not know if that is dissonance. I feel like I know myself pretty well. I also know that my needs change over the years, and I accept that, too. I may never meet someone that sparks that feeling of submissiveness in me again. I am way okay with that.

I used to think submissiveness was a character or personality trait. I am sure for some people it is, but I do not view it that way anymore. Like I said, good people want to serve those they love, the way they go about it might differ, but service can take many shapes. Good people want to please their loved ones. So, there is no "submissive" personality trait I can think of that I carry around with me 24-7. That is all I am saying.

If you need me to clarify, I will

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 39

RE: ...*The Journey...the Process...the Walk *... - 5/25/2011 6:32:51 PM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

What I dont get about this thread is the struggle some of you have had to basically be yourself. As if your not being true to who you want to be. leaderships question what right do I have to boss my wife around. He struggled with. From my perspective that questions would never come up. Cuz Im the boss its just that simple.

BadOne

I dont get how you dont get people's struggles or how difficult it can be to be "true to who you want to be". Your glibness I dont get. You are the boss you say but to me, uh no, you are not.

I am menstruating hence blood bath.

When I was teaching they were always a few students that just don't get it and have to take the class over again. I doubt typing slower will help you understand. Case in point I received a long letter re my post in this thread that created further dialog. Obviously they got it why can't you understand?

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to heartcream)

Post #: 40

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