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Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/25/2011 8:53:19 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL3E7GP1GG20110525?sp=true

This will give Japanese solar manufacturers a steady market and further impetus to innovate. If the US does not do something similiar and soon we will have let another emerging energy indsutry get created elsewhere along with all the great jobs involved in making panels etc.
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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/25/2011 9:18:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		That's nice. Requiring solar panels on all new construction. I'm sure that will be very cost effective and efficient in the parts of the country that get plentiful sea fog and clouds most of the year.

Baka.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 5:39:55 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		From the article:  "But solar panel prices are on the decline, and if houses and buildings are more effectively insulated, initial investments would be paid back in eight years or so, instead of 15 to 20 years currently, Mitsubishi Research's Komiyama said."

Translation:  Solar takes 15-20 years to pay back its initial cost.  Effective insulation alone, which should cost next to nothing compared to solar, will save just as much money.


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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 6:01:46 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		But that's it isnt it, the level of interest in alternative energy forms, everything based upon short term gain, not investing in the future as we should be doing, so our descendants can live more comfortably as we are based upon our ancestors actions. Or is it we have become a society that cares for nothing other than what we can get out of it on an immediate basis ?

Ok, from the little that I understand about solar panel technology, it is not actual power of light that generates the current, but light itself, so even with low cloud or indeed sea fog during the day it is light and that light can be converted to electricity, obviously there will be more action when it's sunny due to the level of light, but light is light, nothing to be scoffed at, and bravo to the Japanese.

But didn't I hear in Obama's electioneering he wanted to ween America off foreign oil and its associated problems, invest in alternative energies and get another form of energy rolling for the united states during his tenure ? Can I ask what is he doing about this, much, or nothing, for I haven't heard any headlines about the US making break throughs in viable alternative energy lately.

But as an aside, a friend of mine who lives and works on an organic farming commune has to replace his poly tunnels and I have recently made him aware of photovoltaic plastics for poly tunnel use. They may be a bunch of crusty hippies out at the commune, but they are wealthy enough to invest in alternative energy, they already have wind turbines, the horizontal axis variety on a tower and the vertical axis type up on a hill top, they are investing in their future, not a great deal of energy, but enough if used sparingly where it is needed and not where it is not.

But perhaps we all need to re think our energy requirements, as it is getting more and more expensive and harder to obtain, and without a shadow of a doubt, a country's politics is being influenced by those who own the resources, maybe we need to dip out of that for all our own sakes.


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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 6:57:46 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

From the article:  "But solar panel prices are on the decline, and if houses and buildings are more effectively insulated, initial investments would be paid back in eight years or so, instead of 15 to 20 years currently, Mitsubishi Research's Komiyama said."

Translation:  Solar takes 15-20 years to pay back its initial cost.  Effective insulation alone, which should cost next to nothing compared to solar, will save just as much money.


That is true today but we know that the more we produce something and the more people compete to sell a product the cheaper and more efficient that product becomes. People will innovate if the economic incentive is there and Japan is creating that economic incentive.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 7:09:12 AM   
Icarys


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But didn't I hear in Obama's electioneering he wanted to ween America off foreign oil and its associated problems, invest in alternative energies and get another form of energy rolling for the united states during his tenure ?

My bet is, that there quietly pushing for increased gas and coal production, coupled with more drilling for oil.

I'm seeing more commercials for coal and gas along with more figureheads for those industries making appearances on shows and such. Marketing 101.

I'm not sure about the alternative fuels and techs but I do know that large companies are beginning to catch onto the possibilities. Depending on how you look at it that could be a good thing, bad thing or a combination of both to varying degrees.

As you say though..I haven't heard much in the news lately about Obama and his plans for it either.


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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 7:12:45 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

Translation: Solar takes 15-20 years to pay back its initial cost. Effective insulation alone, which should cost next to nothing compared to solar, will save just as much money.

We have to start somewhere. Insulation alone won't save as much money as the two combined. You also may not be looking at the big picture.

In 8 years, you're system will be paid for. How much longer will you receive the savings?

20 or 25 years?


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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 7:18:17 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

But perhaps we all need to re think our energy requirements, as it is getting more and more expensive and harder to obtain, and without a shadow of a doubt, a country's politics is being influenced by those who own the resources, maybe we need to dip out of that for all our own sakes.

My personal belief is, if you make the move now or in the near future, you'll be ahead of the game. Prices for fuels will be going up as the demand builds and the availability wanes. Prices for the tech will be going down but at what price will they meet?

Conservation is definitely a term that the U.S. population could use. We use, I believe, about twice as much as any nation in the world. Are we gluttons or what.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/26/2011 7:49:14 AM >

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 7:35:04 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		That article is a bit disingenuous. Anytime anyone compares cost per kW/hr of various energy generating technologies- there really needs to be a match with hours of production. Since peak demand is continuing to climb with air conditioner sales, peak demand goes up as well. I've seen suggestions that real time pricing might need to use a factor of 3 difference between night time rates and peak demand on hot days. But that article directly compared the cost of nuclear and PV- and that's really not a good idea.

Also neglected are the increasing costs of fuels. One company in CT, Sikorsky, decided to go green and built a cogeneration heat/power plant on site. They estimated the pay back as 8 years. They were wrong- it was less than 5 with the increased fuel costs they've gotten hit with.

While technology offers ways to produce more energy while reducing CO2 output- economists seem to be stuck. Some folks would build larger wind turbines on their property if they could sell the excess power back to the utility- but no utility will write them a check. Japans utilities may be even more screwed up than ours...


Sam

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 7:43:00 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL3E7GP1GG20110525?sp=true

This will give Japanese solar manufacturers a steady market and further impetus to innovate. If the US does not do something similiar and soon we will have let another emerging energy indsutry get created elsewhere along with all the great jobs involved in making panels etc.


You missed the boat on that, solar panels are being made in China. lol I read about one peel and stick solar panel that China was coming out with that would cost $1/kw. I like the idea of peel and stick since anyone that doesnt have a serious height phobia can install them (providing the roofing is suitable). But if you DIY to save money then you lose govt grants since you wont have used a "licensed installer" to qualify.

Now as of Jan 1, California requires all new construction to be "green" so every house now has to be prewired or whatever to accomodate solar panels. Yeah sure, who can afford solar panels given the house prices here? Even with the govt grants for solar, very few people put them in here. I disagree with the requirement to build a house that is green by their standards, forcing even higher housing costs with (imnsho) no real benefit. More regs in an over regulated state.

Solar isnt the only alternate energy source, if a person gets enough wind you can use wind power instead, you can even build your own wind generator (there are books that show you how).

Imo, instead of invading Iraq, those trillions of $$$$ could have been used to create a viable alternate energy source industry or put solar panels on every house in the US. It aint gonna happen now tho, the govt cant afford it. Thats why all they have done is give out a few pissy/useless "incentives".

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 9:07:08 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

Imo, instead of invading Iraq, those trillions of $$$$ could have been used to create a viable alternate energy source industry or put solar panels on every house in the US. It aint gonna happen now tho, the govt cant afford it. Thats why all they have done is give out a few pissy/useless "incentives".

If we can become energy independent, maybe we could wage war for nobler reasons.

I don't know, tj. I think as people learn more about it, it may just happen, although a little slower than it might would have with government help.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/26/2011 9:09:04 AM >

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 9:30:41 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Imo, instead of invading Iraq, those trillions of $$$$ could have been used to create a viable alternate energy source industry or put solar panels on every house in the US. It aint gonna happen now tho, the govt cant afford it. Thats why all they have done is give out a few pissy/useless "incentives".

If we can become energy independent, maybe we could wage war for nobler reasons.

I don't know, tj. I think as people learn more about it, it may just happen, although a little slower than it might would have with government help.


Well, people wont learn more about it unless there is a solid reason for them to.... like say, oh... gas at $10/gal, etc.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 9:32:47 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		tj

Japan still has some pretty big solar mfg capacity as well- although believe it or not, by some measures, First Solar in the US is the largest mfg- but they don't do Si.

Sam

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:10:33 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

From the article:  "But solar panel prices are on the decline, and if houses and buildings are more effectively insulated, initial investments would be paid back in eight years or so, instead of 15 to 20 years currently, Mitsubishi Research's Komiyama said."

Translation:  Solar takes 15-20 years to pay back its initial cost.  Effective insulation alone, which should cost next to nothing compared to solar, will save just as much money.



I don't think that Solar is the answer to ALL of our energy problems. It should be part of the whole picture.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:15:03 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

tj

Japan still has some pretty big solar mfg capacity as well- although believe it or not, by some measures, First Solar in the US is the largest mfg- but they don't do Si.

Sam


Sure, a company can manufacture any place it wants to but the bottom line is they still generally have to compete with other manufacturers in China and other developing countries that have very low wages and lower costs. Unless the company uses cnc machines, of course, then the labor factor is considerably less (but then not many factory jobs are created). Of course it looks good, PR-wise, if you can claim you have a US factory to sell to Americans, or a Japanese factory to sell to Japanese customers.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:16:51 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

But perhaps we all need to re think our energy requirements, as it is getting more and more expensive and harder to obtain, and without a shadow of a doubt, a country's politics is being influenced by those who own the resources, maybe we need to dip out of that for all our own sakes.

My personal belief is, if you make the move now or in the near future, you'll be ahead of the game. Prices for fuels will be going up as the demand builds and the availability wanes. Prices for the tech will be going down but at what price will they meet?

Conservation is definitely a term that the U.S. population could use. We use, I believe, about twice as much as any nation in the world. Are we gluttons or what.


QFT.

The figure I heard is that the US is 4% of the world's population and use 25% of it's natural resources.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:20:31 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

From the article:  "But solar panel prices are on the decline, and if houses and buildings are more effectively insulated, initial investments would be paid back in eight years or so, instead of 15 to 20 years currently, Mitsubishi Research's Komiyama said."

Translation:  Solar takes 15-20 years to pay back its initial cost.  Effective insulation alone, which should cost next to nothing compared to solar, will save just as much money.



I don't think that Solar is the answer to ALL of our energy problems. It should be part of the whole picture.


People forget that solar panels have a lifespan and become less productive as they age, and so far, by the time you get your payback, its likely time to replace the panels again. Which sort of makes the whole process sort of pointless, from a $ point of view.

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:28:10 AM   
Edwynn


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~FR~


quote:

From the article:  "But solar panel prices are on the decline, and if houses and buildings are more effectively insulated, initial investments would be paid back in eight years or so, instead of 15 to 20 years currently, Mitsubishi Research's Komiyama said."

Translation:  Solar takes 15-20 years to pay back its initial cost.  Effective insulation alone, which should cost next to nothing compared to solar, will save just as much money.




Boy, now that's some smart thinking, isn't it?

Firstly, truly good and effective insulation costs far from 'next to nothing,' and the very sentence alluded to also explains that solar costs are ever being reduced, which would tell most people that the comparison in cost today is not to be held as valid when considering an eight, twenty, twenty-five year time span. And then claiming that reducing the time of cost recovery in half is not worth pursuing because using one method alone equates to the other over  the course of 15-20 years. No, I am not getting that one at all.

Somehow I think that this line of simplistic 'reasoning' is what pervades the decision making process at the highest levels, and along with the current energy paradigm vested interests' vigorous antagonism towards any detraction from business as usual explains the snail's pace obtaining here.

More solar, more wind power, more shoreline wave energy, more co-generation plants, ever improving energy cell technology, and most especially, better materials science for reducing weight and better manufacturing process to reduce energy usage are what's coming down the pike. The progress can be (and is being) slowed, but it cannot be stopped.

With the onset of these new methods, the current beneficiaries of the oil depletion allowance, the corn ethanol subsidies, the carbon credits scam (much benefit of which finds its way to agro-chem companies), will see these and other fluffy money pillows reduced, so no surprise that they and their whore congressmen will fight it every step of the way.



Oh yeah, more breathable air and drinkable water, less toxic (expensive) cleanups; almost forgot about those little items. When doing an economic analysis, one cannot pick and chose costs, they must all be accounted for for any estimation to be valid.








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/26/2011 10:33:12 AM >

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:28:40 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

This will give Japanese solar manufacturers a steady market and further impetus to innovate. If the US does not do something similiar and soon we will have let another emerging energy indsutry get created elsewhere along with all the great jobs involved in making panels etc.


I agree, and I think it's tragic that one of the big targets of Boner's budget charlatans is the Renewable Energy Initiative. And the reason behind that is most likely that big oil isn't ready to shift energy monopolies yet. But it'll happen .... when exxon is goddamned good and ready for it to happen

Incidentally, it's no wonder the Japanese are suddenly gung ho on solar, having basically just nuked themselves and facing the replacement of a huge chunk of their energy infrasructure. 

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RE: Japan to pioneer universal solar power - 5/26/2011 10:31:03 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Somehow I think that this line of simplistic 'reasoning' is what pervades the decision making process at the highest levels, and along with the current energy paradigm vested interests' vigorous antagonism towards any detraction from business as usual explains the snail's pace obtaining here.


Give that man a cigar!

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