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High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public ... - 5/26/2011 12:01:32 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		He's just a kid and shouldn't be treated in such an abusive way. The law and the Constitution are for everybody. I think they overreacted and I don't think they should be proud of the way they are treating him, it's not the Christian way or is it? Although I think it was a learning experience and he'll be stronger in the future because of this.i




High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened
When a high school atheist tried to stop prayer at his graduation, he was harassed and kicked out of his house. But the atheist community stepped in.


It's a law and a Constitution that protects everybody, not just atheists. If you wouldn't want to be subjected to a government-sponsored Buddhist prayer, you ought not to be subjecting others to a government-sponsored Christian prayer.

1) Fowler has been hounded, pilloried, and ostracized by his community. He's become the center of what he terms a "shitstorm": he has been harassed, vilified, targeted with insults and name-calling and hateful remarks. He's been told t he's the Devil. He's been told, "Go cry to your mommy... oh, wait. You can't." (A reference to him being disowned by his parents.) He's been told that he's only doing this to get attention.

A student's public prayer at a pre-graduation "Class Night" event was turned into an opportunity for the school and community to gang up on Fowler and publicly close ranks against him -- teachers as well as students. (Here's video). And people seen defending him have been targeted as well.

As just a taste, here are a few comments on the Bastrop Enterprise news story about the controversy: "I personally see him as a coward." "I hope they [Christians] put enough pressure on this kid to convert him and save his soul from the fire of hell." "The kid was likely a recluse and apathetic about most everything until now." "If he don't want prayer at graduation he can stay at home and not come to graduation." "Afterall, that's what she or he wants isn't it to be singled out! This just makes me ill." "I hope that the little athiest is offended." "What he is really doing is trying to shove his views down people's throats." "Why does this student only now decide to get engaged in what is happening at the school? Is it nothing more than our own self-destructive human nature to break down anything of which we may not approve?" "That student should just have to have his/her one man graduation ceremony all alone." "Satan continues to prowl and is deceiving many in this world."


http://www.alternet.org/story/151086/high_school_student_stands_up_against_prayer_at_public_school_and_is_ostracized%2C_demeaned_and_threatened?page=entire






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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 2:47:33 PM   
outhere69


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Status: offline 		Not much different than a family shown on 60 Minutes about, oh, 15 years ago.  The parents moved south and protested the daily prayer (an Evangelical prayer).  The kid got similar treatment as above.

The interesting thing is that the parents are Lutheran.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:13:56 PM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		The law say's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, if he doesn't want to hear prayers, he should stay the fuck home, and stop being a whiny douchebag.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:18:45 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I can't fucking stand news stories like this...You have time to get the quote but for some reason you can't find the time to attribute it to someone?

it's crappy journalism.

Public organized prayer has no place in a public school. It's unbelievable that this shit still transpires.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:21:15 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

The law say's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, if he doesn't want to hear prayers, he should stay the fuck home, and stop being a whiny douchebag.



You are really not a very good American or you are unable to read.

You can pray as an individual wherever your little conservative subby heart desires. You, however, are not allowed to hold organized religious prayer in a public school.

Whether you be Muslim, Buddhist or Christian.

poor subrob, so dumb.



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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:28:25 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I see no reason that free citizens cannot express their rights to freedom of speech in the form of a prayer, good thoughts or a long speech on the evils of government. If I do not want to hear them, I just go somewhere else. Now pressure on those that do not want to be involved is a different thing.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:32:27 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

I do not see where if individuals are organizing prayer on their own, that it is violating "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

I do see that if they are prevented from doing so as a violation of "abridging the freedom of speech".

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:34:29 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		There are plenty of places where it is legal to do those things...A public school is not one of them. Imagine if the school decided that there would be a Muslim prayer every morning at first bell or after football games.

Do you think those fucking hillbillies in La or TX would stand for that kind of shit?

That is why there are laws to protect the citizens of this land from dopes that live La and TX.

Sadly, they still don't get it or care.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:38:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There are plenty of places where it is legal to do those things...A public school is not one of them. Imagine if the school decided that there would be a Muslim prayer every morning at first bell or after football games.


Why, if it is not organized by the school? Isn't that breaking the freedom of speech portion?

quote:


Do you think those fucking hillbillies in La or TX would stand for that kind of shit?


Who cares? Enforcement of the Constitution is not an optional item.

quote:


That is why there are laws to protect the citizens of this land from dopes that live La and TX.

Sadly, they still don't get it or care.


Laws do not protect people. They provide a legal means of consequence if someone engages in an action that society deems is objectionable.

Seems pretty hypocritical that one portion of the 1st Amendment is trying to be used here, and another is ignored entirely. Suppose many people still like to pick and choose.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:39:12 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		"The State" = public schools

The Supreme Court's June 1963 decision on Bible reading and recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools

The Supreme Court's Decision

On June 17, 1963, the Court decided, by an 8-1 majority, that the required religious practices of Bible reading and recitation of the Lord's Prayer and the laws requiring them are unconstitutional.

Justice Clark, in his majority opinion, noted that past cases involving the First Amendment the Court had held that the state must

"be a neutral in its relations with groups of religious believers and nonbelievers; it does not require the state to be their adversary. State power is no more to be used so as to handicap religions than it is to favor them."

Toward the end of his opinion, Justice Clark said:

The place of religion in our society is an exalted one, achieved through a long tradition of reliance on the home, the church, and the inviolable citadel of the individual heart and mind. We have come to recognize through bitter experience that it is not within the power of government to invade that citadel, whether its purpose or effect be to aid or oppose, to advance or retard. In the relationship between man and religion, the State is firmly committed to a position of neutrality.

In answer to arguments that the decision would establish in the schools a "religion of secularism," Justice Clark said:

We agree of course that the State may not establish a "religion of secularism," in the sense of affirmatively opposing or showing hostility to religion, thus "preferring those who believe in no religion over those who do believe." . . . We do not agree, however, that this decision in any sense has that effect.

As the following paragraph indicates, he made it clear that the study, of religion, as distinguished from religious exercises, is permitted.

It certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistent with the First Amendment.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:42:41 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I agree that organization by the school, or it's employees would be a violation. If an individual citizen wishes to say a prayer, and is joined by other individuals, I do not see a problem unless it disrupts some proceedings that are taking place. Otherwise it is a clear violation of freedom of speech. If people were to stand up and start reciting historic quotes in unision, would it be a problem? Why is expression via prayer treated differently?

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:44:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I see no reason that free citizens cannot express their rights to freedom of speech in the form of a prayer, good thoughts or a long speech on the evils of government. If I do not want to hear them, I just go somewhere else. Now pressure on those that do not want to be involved is a different thing.

The prayer in question were at public high school graduation ceremonies. So is it ok with you that the government spent time and money on a prayer? And is it ok that unwilling people were forced to participate in order to get their diploma?

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:47:26 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

The law say's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.....


Means the same thing, except to the conservative idiots you listen to in the media that fill your little head with nonsense.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:47:29 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

The law say's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, if he doesn't want to hear prayers, he should stay the fuck home, and stop being a whiny douchebag.

So, if you live in an area that is mostly pagan, should you be FORCED to take part in their worship? I beg to differ. Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM having YOUR religion crammed down MY throat.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:50:34 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Let me help...Since you obviously didn't take the time to read the story that you are commenting on.

"...His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year. But Fowler -- knowing that government-sponsored prayer in the public schools is unconstitutional and legally forbidden -- contacted the school superintendent to let him know that he opposed the prayer, and would be contacting the ACLU if it happened. The school -- at first, anyway -- agreed, and canceledthe prayer."

see how it was a "planned event?" that makes it highly illegal to have it performed on school grounds.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:51:28 PM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

if he doesn't want to hear prayers, he should stay the fuck home, and stop being a whiny douchebag.



Why the fuck should he have to stay home? Does this country have an official state religion that most don't know about?

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 3:54:55 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I stand corrected, I skimmed part of the story. My bad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I see no reason that free citizens cannot express their rights to freedom of speech in the form of a prayer, good thoughts or a long speech on the evils of government. If I do not want to hear them, I just go somewhere else. Now pressure on those that do not want to be involved is a different thing.

The prayer in question were at public high school graduation ceremonies. So is it ok with you that the government spent time and money on a prayer? And is it ok that unwilling people were forced to participate in order to get their diploma?


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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 6:07:32 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yes he has the right to say and do as he pleases...but everyone must live with the consequences of their actions.

So it is ok for him to protest a school sponsored prayer…and succeed…but it is not alright for a student to exercise her free speech to say a payer over a microphone.

Butch

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 6:21:36 PM   
outhere69


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Status: offline 		It's an official function by the school district.  Doesn't matter who's reading the prayer.

Students can have Bible study, prayer, etc. at schools if they are student meetings (like a club meeting).  These issues arise when institutions get involved ; it's seen as government endorsement of a particular religious belief.  And like Domi said above, these same folks would go ballistic if the prayer was to Allah, Adonai, the Horned One, Astarte, etc.  Or even Satan.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 6:24:36 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

It's an official function by the school district.  Doesn't matter who's reading the prayer.

Students can have Bible study, prayer, etc. at schools if they are student meetings (like a club meeting).  These issues arise when institutions get involved ; it's seen as government endorsement of a particular religious belief.  And like Domi said above, these same folks would go ballistic if the prayer was to Allah, Adonai, the Horned One, Astarte, etc.  Or even Satan.




This is important to note. This is well settled constitutional law. But it appears that some people think they don't have to obey our secular law if their religion compels them otherwise.

Sounds a lot like Sharia, dunnit?

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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