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ORIGINAL: PhilSlave
Excellent post.

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ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

I find the dynamics of this thread fascinating. Excellent posts for six pages, then the first personal attacks were against *me+, which almost never happens, a handful of people tried to make nice, and suddenly we're moving at warp speed toward the cesspool. I doubt I will continue reading. This sort of dynamic is not why I'm here.

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ORIGINAL: Aderious

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ORIGINAL: PhilSlave
Excellent post.

Thanks. Men may all want to fuck models but they can make do with jerking off to photos of those models in magazines. And plenty of guys with low sexual market value do just that...for decades, even. Just goes to show that men are the ones who are highly self-sufficient.

Wimmin, on the other hand, want and need attention from ALL men, and god help them if they don't get it even for one hour...

Men's sexual advances are turned down regularly. If a womyn were to be turned down on the few occasions she actually made a sexual advance of her own, she would completely lose it. Most likely a screaming tantrum and crying fest would ensue.

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ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

I find the dynamics of this thread fascinating. Excellent posts for six pages, then the first personal attacks were against *me+, which almost never happens, a handful of people tried to make nice, and suddenly we're moving at warp speed toward the cesspool. I doubt I will continue reading. This sort of dynamic is not why I'm here.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

In all fairness, comparing a 24 year old Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime to a broken-down Dworkin in her 50's is stacking the deck.  Plus Dworkin's radical feminism isn't exactly representative of modern female empowerment.

A more appropriate example is probably Selma Hayek: 

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Do you really see this, Red? OK, maybe for the short term future. But my growing sense is that the two (majority) sexes are easing off with each other. The twenty-somethings seem so much more laid back about gender roles. I have good feelings about these things regarding, say, a period twenty-five years from now.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

I find the dynamics of this thread fascinating. Excellent posts for six pages, then the first personal attacks were against *me+, which almost never happens, a handful of people tried to make nice, and suddenly we're moving at warp speed toward the cesspool. I doubt I will continue reading. This sort of dynamic is not why I'm here.

God knows what the Mods will do about it. This has turned into insane, brainless drivel.

Heather: in case you were thinking it - this was not your fault . . . .

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

  Look, you two need to shut the fuck up.  I was quite happy here being the poster child for misogyny and you fuckers are totally ruining my gig.  Shoo!

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Do you really see this, Red? OK, maybe for the short term future. But my growing sense is that the two (majority) sexes are easing off with each other. The twenty-somethings seem so much more laid back about gender roles. I have good feelings about these things regarding, say, a period twenty-five years from now.

I don't know if it will be that quick, but I do agree that the war between the sexes is all but over. There are a few hangers-on to be sure but things are going to stablize for the reason you stated coupled with the fact that more women are entering college now than men and eventually that is going to be quite telling as the qualified work force actually starts to tilt in the other direction. The pendulum will swing back and forth a few times but eventually it's going to end up where the species dictates it must and pretty much irrespective of how the individual man or woman feels about it.

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ORIGINAL: Aderious

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

In all fairness, comparing a 24 year old Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime to a broken-down Dworkin in her 50's is stacking the deck.  Plus Dworkin's radical feminism isn't exactly representative of modern female empowerment.

A more appropriate example is probably Selma Hayek: 

I believe Arnold was closer to 30 around the time that photo was taken, but I'll grant you there's an age difference. Still, at no point in her life did Dworkin look remotely as good (by the standards of her gender) as Arnold did at any point in his life (by the standards of his). It's common knowledge that real-life lesbians - the ones who exist outside of Hollywood movies and porno flix - are ugly. Sure, occasionally some attractive model-type will spout off a few feminist platitudes in an interview somewhere, but then she'll go right back to being a stereotypical pretty girl and dating her jock boyfriend. The only intellectually-consistent lesbians/feminists are the ugly ones. The rest are simply pretending.

With wimmin, it's always the same game: they have their fun, they screw around with bad boys, and then they get married to a beta-male provider and start crapping out kids. It's the same old trick, repeated billions of times since the dawn of the planet. Just a linear path to the grave. For all their pretensions at creativity, spontaneity, imagination, etc...it is men, not wimmin, who invent new things, discover new places, acquire new hobbies, and in the process give up their previous lives. Can you imagine a 34 year old housewife leaving her middle class existence behind to climb a mountain somewhere? Not gonna happen. But a man would do it...

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

You're just funny. An yeah, we're not laughing with you, we're laughing AT you.

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ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Well thank you again for participating Awareness. It seems you can't deal with disagreement on any level, you interpret any such disagreement as an attack. Let me assure you I am not Hanners, and I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to examine your ideas in the light of my question is all. I haven't insulted you, but you have insulted me, and for no reason. I'll let it pass this time, but I'll thank you not to do that in the future.

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By this measure, I'm very old. I have spent this whole thread asking for input from more experienced people. Altering my position in the light of that input, and doing so openly. So obviously I don't think I understand the world better than anybody else, let alone everybody else.

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You, on the other hand post the same basic position on every thread, and ignore or dismiss any any reply that opposes your view. Clearly you do think you understand the world better than everybody else. I hope you appreciate the irony of this, but by your own standard you have a lot of growing up to do.

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This could be so, but the impression I get is that the box I put you into is pretty much the same box everybody else puts you in.

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Now if I were the only one, or even in the minority, then perhaps you might be right that its an error, but since pretty much everybody agrees with my categorization, I'm inclined to think that it is the correct one, especially since so many of those with much more life and lifestyle experience think so as well.

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That's very interesting and obvious, but I asked you why YOU think penetrative sex is dominant. What your reply had to do with the question beyond objecting to my use of the word "all" is beyond me.

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OK, that's a valid difference. Never having been penetrated by anything that can impregnate me I can't speak to the psychological difference. It does make a certain sense, but I still fail to see how that makes it dominant or submissive in and of itself.

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One could look at it the other way around, and say the woman is in fact being the dominant one by extracting the seed needed to perpetuate the species from the male. I know you don't agree with that (I don't really myself) but you have to admit that it is a valid way of interpreting the same act, and it reverses the role of dominant and submissive.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

  In lighter news, somewhere lurking under all this is a thread.  Let's see if I can get a meaningful response to Heather before lockdown.

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ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Well thank you again for participating Awareness. It seems you can't deal with disagreement on any level, you interpret any such disagreement as an attack. Let me assure you I am not Hanners, and I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to examine your ideas in the light of my question is all. I haven't insulted you, but you have insulted me, and for no reason. I'll let it pass this time, but I'll thank you not to do that in the future.

  No.  Look, this is something that people really do need to get over.  I didn't insult you, I made a very clear statement which you chose to misinterpret.  I then corrected your misapprehension and you chose to interpret it as an insult.

Now, I firmly believe that the meaning of a communication is the response you get.  This implies that the onus of clear communication is upon the individual who makes the statement - in this case, me - however I simply don't know you well enough to pitch my sentences so they'll work their way through your internal model of the world and strike your consciousness in the way I intend.  Suffice it to say that you're misinterpreting what I'm saying through the lens of ego and taking it personally.  That's not the way it's intended, so stop presuming adversarial intent where none exists.

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By this measure, I'm very old. I have spent this whole thread asking for input from more experienced people. Altering my position in the light of that input, and doing so openly. So obviously I don't think I understand the world better than anybody else, let alone everybody else.

  I'm speaking in more generic terms.  A simple position is one thing.  Wait until you've had your world-view completely shaken to pieces once or twice.  That's when things really become interesting.

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You, on the other hand post the same basic position on every thread, and ignore or dismiss any any reply that opposes your view. Clearly you do think you understand the world better than everybody else. I hope you appreciate the irony of this, but by your own standard you have a lot of growing up to do.

  No.  My views spring from the same fundamental position, but I've never articulated these particular points before, so I'm afraid your statement is a synthesis of your own view about me, not a correct statement of what I've actually posted.

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This could be so, but the impression I get is that the box I put you into is pretty much the same box everybody else puts you in.

  These are your first two mistakes.  The first is that saying 'everyone' is incorrect.  There are plenty of people who understand me, but feel no need to rush to my rescue in a thread.  The second is not thinking for yourself.  The fact that all the cool kids - or rather, people whom you feel are the cool kids - regard an individual in a specific way is no excuse for failing to make up your own mind.

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Now if I were the only one, or even in the minority, then perhaps you might be right that its an error, but since pretty much everybody agrees with my categorization, I'm inclined to think that it is the correct one, especially since so many of those with much more life and lifestyle experience think so as well.

  Age is no guarantee of maturity, experience or wisdom - although the odds tend to favour it.  As I've opined before, this lifestyle attracts many with issues and the doctrine of self-interest is strong in us all.  That means that until you can understand why people react the way they do, you're left guessing at their motivations.  All you know is, I piss people off.  Well guess what - so does Hanners.  Chew over that for a while before you become too self-congratulatory about your insights into my character.

I'll give you a hint.  Ignore what people say.  Ask yourself why they're saying it.  The answer to this question will give you more insight than you could possibly imagine.

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That's very interesting and obvious, but I asked you why YOU think penetrative sex is dominant. What your reply had to do with the question beyond objecting to my use of the word "all" is beyond me.

  I'm invading a woman's body in the most intimate way possible with a piece of my own body that's pretty much designed specifically for the job.  I imagine women who use strap-ons on men do so specifically to try and approximate the same sense of dominant power.

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OK, that's a valid difference. Never having been penetrated by anything that can impregnate me I can't speak to the psychological difference. It does make a certain sense, but I still fail to see how that makes it dominant or submissive in and of itself.

Nothing is anything in and of itself.  I really don't want to go into Platonism or the Theory of Forms at this point.  Dominant and submissive are labels we ascribe to a complex set of interactions which invoke feelings and responses.  And it's very much tied up with the power of choice.  Claiming you're dominant is irrelevant if you lack the means to exert your will.  When a woman instructs a man to penetrate her, she's not exerting her will, she's trying to convince him to exert his.  All she has is compliance, not dominance.  For me, that's a critical difference.

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One could look at it the other way around, and say the woman is in fact being the dominant one by extracting the seed needed to perpetuate the species from the male. I know you don't agree with that (I don't really myself) but you have to admit that it is a valid way of interpreting the same act, and it reverses the role of dominant and submissive.

  You could argue it was to her advantage, but ultimately I doubt it makes a whole lot of difference.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

When a woman instructs a man to penetrate her, she's not exerting her will, she's trying to convince him to exert his.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Ya.

And I was remembering a conversation I was half listening, to one night in a gay nightclub, at a table of mostly gay men. They were discussing how vaginas scare the hell out of them. They all said they adore women, and find breasts delightful and fascinating, but that the vagina was like a scary monster that wanted to devour their dicks. One guy, that had actually been married and fathered children said he used to have dreams in which the vaginas has sharp teeth.

Somehow I don't see a scary, sharp toothed, dick devouring, monster as all that submissive.

I think, as with everything, it is all about perception. The chest thumping knuckle draggers, and the women that love them, are never going to change their perception. I am okay with that as I don't have to own either one of them. Just walk around them rather like the nutty homeless man that wanders along the side walk near where I work....babbling his nonsense. Just because they say it, and just because it is their reality, does not make it truth or reality to me. No matter how loudly they babble.

AND.........for me personally, I don't care of they agree with me and my reality or not. I've got all the legal rights I need so their beliefs.....just don't matter. Their babble matters not to me. However.....over and over again it is made apparent that MY beliefs do matter to them. If that was not the case, they would not take so much time babbling on and on, with such vehemence. This is where my inner sadist rubs her hands in glee. Watching their words spew forth, imagining their fingers furiously typing away, the muttering, blood pressure sky rocketing. And I smile.

WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!