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tazzygirl -> Free College. (5/29/2011 7:10:37 AM)

This seems to be a topic lately... free education in the US beyond high school. This morning, the NYTimes ran a opinion piece about free medical training...

Why Medical School Should Be Free

The point is to provide free medical school training for primary care levels... anything specialized would be at full price.

We currently have programs for Drs to offset their loans with programs, but few take the help.

What say you... should education be free?




TheHeretic -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:21:22 AM)

Something given has no value, Tazzy.




tazzygirl -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:22:39 AM)

How many excellent physicians do we not have because they cannot afford the education?




DarkSteven -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:26:11 AM)

tazzy, you'll have to define "free".  In Kuwait (IIRC), there is free college for all citizens - universal free college.  In the USA, we DO have free college, but it's not universal.  You need to qualify for it through scholarship applications.  In another country (don't ask me which one), they have free college for those who pass certain exams, and no college at all for those who don't.

Personally, I feel like we have too many college grads already.  Subsidizing more will make our country pay for a surplus of educated jobless, and a dearth of blue collar labor.

Edited to add: 
I responded to the thread's title, not the intent as seen in the linked article which only addresses free college for DOCTORS. 

I had read some while back that the number of med students per year was fixed and that the AMA refused to allow more med school courses.  In other words, that the upcoming doctor shortage is due to reasons entirely unrelated to the costs of getting the degree.  There are also ways to get the costs forgiven, such as serving as a medic in the services or in an underserved rural area.

If so, then the article's authors are proposing that we (the great unwashed middle class) subsidize doctors to address a need that's not there.  A firm NO vote from me.





tazzygirl -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:27:09 AM)

Its all listed in the OP article, DS, on how they envision it would work for PCP's




TheHeretic -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:37:38 AM)

Tazzy, med school isn't just expensive, it is also hard, and requires great committment and personal sacrifice. I'm certainly in for methods that might allow the students to clear the debt through public service, but if prospective students don't have the brains and drive to clear the financial hurdle at the gate, how many classroom seats are we going to be clogging with those who don't have what it takes to finish anyway?





willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:40:07 AM)

Why not free MBAs? Free BS Eng? Why not free BA Basketweaving?

Asinine proposal.




tazzygirl -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:42:06 AM)

Simple, willbe... do you see a shortage of MBA's happening in the next few years, to the tune of approximately 40,000?




tazzygirl -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:43:42 AM)

It is hard, Rich. Wouldnt that weed out those who do not have the brains? When did money equate to intelligence? If that were the case.... ah no, not gonna fall into that.

How many people have the brains, and the drive, but simply lack the funds?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 7:51:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Simple, willbe... do you see a shortage of MBA's happening in the next few years, to the tune of approximately 40,000?


If theres a shortage in a profession students major in it, without it being paid for. Always happened, always will.
Do you see empty seats in pre-Med? In Medical school?

Asinine proposal.




and next we'll get the argument that "health care is different"




tazzygirl -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:02:11 AM)

Who is paying for it, willbe? 155,000 in debt by the time a student starts getting paid.. and the top paid PCPs in this country make on average 190,000. Almost a years worth of income before they earn a dime.

This proposal isnt perfect, but it does have merit. by 2020 we will be short 40,000 primary care physicians, whom HMOs and Insurance companies require be seen before any specialist, labeling them the "gate keepers". The Association of American Medical Colleges predict a shortage of 150,000 by 2015. Take your pick as to which you believe.

The shortage is real, and as Boomers hit and the health care law come into full effect, the shortage will become worse. Part of the reason why is so many specialize.. which isnt a bad thing.. but does nothing to relieve the shortage facing the gate keepers.

quote:

The U.S. has 352,908 primary-care doctors now, and the college association estimates that 45,000 more will be needed by 2020. But the number of medical-school students entering family medicine fell more than a quarter between 2002 and 2007.

A shortage of primary-care and other physicians could mean more-limited access to health care and longer wait times for patients.

Proponents of the new health-care law say it does attempt to address the physician shortage. The law offers sweeteners to encourage more people to enter medical professions, and a 10% Medicare pay boost for primary-care doctors.

Meanwhile, a number of new medical schools have opened around the country recently. As of last October, four new medical schools enrolled a total of about 190 students, and 12 medical schools raised the enrollment of first-year students by a total of 150 slots, according to the AAMC. Some 18,000 students entered U.S. medical schools in the fall of 2009, the AAMC says.

But medical colleges and hospitals warn that these efforts will hit a big bottleneck: There is a shortage of medical resident positions. The residency is the minimum three-year period when medical-school graduates train in hospitals and clinics.

There are about 110,000 resident positions in the U.S., according to the AAMC. Teaching hospitals rely heavily on Medicare funding to pay for these slots. In 1997, Congress imposed a cap on funding for medical residencies, which hospitals say has increasingly hurt their ability to expand the number of positions.

Medicare pays $9.1 billion a year to teaching hospitals, which goes toward resident salaries and direct teaching costs, as well as the higher operating costs associated with teaching hospitals, which tend to see the sickest and most costly patients.


I often wonder if those in Congress realize the domino effect thier attempts at health care reform have, especially when adjusting the Medicare rules. Medicare pays for more than just the little old couple that lives next door.




TheHeretic -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:22:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
When did money equate to intelligence?



It doesn't, Tazzy, but when do brains equate with success or accomplishment, either? Without goals, and the strength of will to pursue them despite hardship, we easily wind up with lots of drop-outs when the program gets hard. Think of finding that financing as an entrance exam.

Also, I think we have to consider that accumulating mountain of debt as a motivating factor for the individuals on a difficult path. When they have a dark night of the soul, the knowledge that finishing is the only way they ever get that paid off, is going to keep them on track. If they have nothing to lose by quitting, how many more are going to quit?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:24:16 AM)

FR

To further point out the absurdity of the proposal, people are whining "health care costs too much, wahhhhhh". Obamacare fucks the pay of Medicare doctors to the point its driving docs out of the business. (Or the cuts are reversed in a separate bill to perpetuate the lie that Obamacare saves money, but artifically low caps still remain).

So you fuck them on one end, but give them something on the other end. Guess what...that doesnt do fuck all to contain health care costs.

LEAVE THE FUCKING HEALTH CARE MARKET ALONE.




pahunkboy -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:26:41 AM)

Yes-  Drs provide a good service.  In general I think student loans are a scam.  Drs are not highly paid-  not really. 




Moonhead -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:29:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I had read some while back that the number of med students per year was fixed and that the AMA refused to allow more med school courses.  In other words, that the upcoming doctor shortage is due to reasons entirely unrelated to the costs of getting the degree.  There are also ways to get the costs forgiven, such as serving as a medic in the services or in an underserved rural area.

If so, then the article's authors are proposing that we (the great unwashed middle class) subsidize doctors to address a need that's not there.  A firm NO vote from me.


In which case, AMA reforms would be a great help as well. I get the impression that there's been just as much bitching about importing medical staff from abroad rather than training them domestically in the States as there has on this side of the Atlantic, though. That certainly looks like it's what these proposals are addressing.

As for your other point about too many college grads and a dearth of blue collar workers, isn't that a given at this point anyway? Blue collar work has been dying out in most of the G8 nations since the fashion for outsourcing got going in the early '80s. In the light of that, encouraging undergrads to take technical, vocational type degrees with specific job applications is surely a much better idea than leaving them to acquire whichever mix of liberal arts courses offers the path of least resistance?




TheHeretic -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:30:12 AM)

A little off topic, Tazzy, but you might find this to be a good read.

The commencement address for Harvard Medical School




MasterG2kTR -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:35:36 AM)

Have any of you considered the possibility that free medical college might be laying the groundwork for nationalized healthcare? This "new breed" of doctors might be somehow obligated to perform such service in turn for the education. Think about it.




tj444 -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:41:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This seems to be a topic lately... free education in the US beyond high school. This morning, the NYTimes ran a opinion piece about free medical training...

Why Medical School Should Be Free

The point is to provide free medical school training for primary care levels... anything specialized would be at full price.

We currently have programs for Drs to offset their loans with programs, but few take the help.

What say you... should education be free?


Well, medical tourism is alive and well so does the US really need more Doctors? Why go to a Doctor in the US for surgery when you can go to a Doctor in India (that has been trained in the US, UK or similar country) for a quarter of the price? Just throwing that out there. [&:]

Dont Doctors in the US make a pretty good living, enough to justify them spending the cost/investment on themselves?

Personally, I think anyone that wants to be a Doctor should go into it because they would be good Doctors (not mediocre ones) and to give the education away for free would (imo) bring people that shouldnt be Doctors into that line of work.

And as you say, there are programs for Drs to offset their loans but few take the help, so if that exists already then why does there need to be more?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:43:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR

Have any of you considered the possibility that free medical college might be laying the groundwork for nationalized healthcare? This "new breed" of doctors might be somehow obligated to perform such service in turn for the education. Think about it.


Thats obviously part of it. The profession (NOT the government) needs to find a way to incent docs to work in underserved areas and establish a clinic model that suitably compensates the professionals who work in them. Do that and most of the whining about coverage and costs goes away.




pahunkboy -> RE: Free College. (5/29/2011 8:43:50 AM)

The insurance and law industry takes a huge chuck out of actual care.   It is top heavy in the US.




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